Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[solidman]

I think Liston may have beaten him

[Willow The Wisp]

You stated McVey was competitive with Johnson my post proves he wasn't . You never offer a damn thing just hate.

McVey has several fights not credited and he was billed as having an18-1-0 record

You are just a hating liar,you've no answer to any of our primary sources just insults,well from now on I'll give you them back in spades, a word I've been told you like.

Correct. All of the Sundowners had boatloads of unrecorded paid fights. In the first quarter of the 20th century, shockingly; white newspapers believed they had more important things to do than cover the doings inside the juke joints.

Dave Hatch, Hunter Briscoe, Black Fitzsimmons (Ulysses Cannon), "Bird Legs" Collins, Vernon Campbell, Jim Hightower, W. E. Price, Billy Hill, Harris "Black Pearl" Martin, Black Strap, Bob "Stonewall" Allen, Belfield Walcott, Harry Calvers, "Black Frank" Taylor, Kid Henry, Jim Janey, Tiger Gains, "Darky" Griffin, Louis Young, Bob Long, "Cyclone" Bill Larry, Charles Jennings, Pepper Griffin, George Russell, John W. Curtis, Rufus Graham, Leo Johnson and Battling Chester are just a few other EXCEPTIONAL black fighters who's records are under the microscope of research, and hundreds of previously undiscovered bouts have already been verified.

The grand champion of the era's black fighters who were cheated out of their proper legacy was one Morris Harris, the muscular Philadelphian who won in the neighborhood of 200 fights, and most of what was recorded for posterity are his losses.

[GhostofDempsey]

[QUOTE=Bronson66;n32493204]

There is no agenda. Maybe brain fog is settling on you because I’ve explained it to you several times. Why was your Ivich account banned? Why did a mod start a tread here referring your inability to get along and settle your needs? Why were you banned on another prominent boxing site? You see a pattern here? You and your little sister here are unable to get along with anyone who challenges you or presents factual sources that prove you wrong. You’re incapable of humility or admitting when you’re wrong. Two stubborn fools who always know the wrong answer. Always deflecting, refusing to provide a straight answer and the. Ignoring or dismissing other’s sources while repeating yourselves. It’s a pattern and no coincidence that the two of you are always locked in some online beef with various posters. ..Quote
No reply to my request for a primary source that says Johnson was lucky to get the decision over Battling Jim.No surprise there!
You don't offer any primary sources, ever.
I'm not banned anywhere.

You've no answer to all the verified proof that's posted to counter your hate campaign.

Now you resort to childish insults, as I predicted you would.
I'm locked into no beef, I'm currently ignoring an absolute ******* of personal abuse from a poster who last week, on another forum assured me without any prompting, he would always say good things about me , and spoke very negatively about this forum.
I was polite to you until you began the personal stuff .

Which straight answers have I failed to provide ?
I spent 20 minutes posting primary sources that blew your claim that
McVey was competitive with Johnson , totally out of the water .
McVey barely won a round in3 fights for a total of 60 rounds!
But you had neither the class ,or the balls to admit you were wrong.
I've zero respect for you ,you're just an ignorant hater.
This kind of stuff below is what I'd expect from a kid!
."riding on your three incher"
Well Kid BYE!

What happened coward did you forget how to properly quote me?

The Battling Jim fight was a draw, Johnson struggled with him the whole way. I’ve posted many sources that you ignore and dismiss.

Ducking my questions and lying. You are Ivich and your account was banned here. Why? Your McVey account elsewhere was banned for several months. Why? Still ducking the question and lying.

Lol, now the gaslighting and victimhood begins. You’ve been insulting me on all these posts and now you want to cry when I return fire? Typical.

A novice with less than ten fights goes over 20 rounds with a prime “great” fighter three times and he’s not competitive. He lasted longer than all the never-was no-hopers you hype as great wins on here.

I don’t want or need your respect. In fact I would rather not be liked by you, that would put me in the same company as my stalker and your little sister. Bye grumpy, lol.

[travestyny]

What happened coward did you forget how to properly quote me?

Looks like you forgot how to properly quote him yourself, imbecile

[GhostofDempsey]

The salty drunk likes to tout the weight of Johnson’s opponents, yet not their records.

Tony Ross got a title shot, his record was 12-9-3 and Langford knocked him out the year before Johnson fought him. Was he really deserving? Al Kaufman was a laughing stock. Jack Murray at 15-7-17 was a top heavyweight? Frank Moran 26-9-5 and his two wins prior to his title shot with Johnson were against opponents with records of 8-4 and 5-5-1, prior to them he lost, already had 9 losses in less than 40 fights. Battling Jim 28-10-5. All these guys were top heavyweights more deserving or title shots than Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and Wills who all fought one another?

[travestyny]

The salty drunk likes to tout the weight of Johnson’s opponents, yet not their records.

Tony Ross got a title shot, his record was 12-9-3 and Langford knocked him out the year before Johnson fought him. Was he really deserving? Al Kaufman was a laughing stock. Jack Murray at 15-7-17 was a top heavyweight? Frank Moran 26-9-5 and his two wins prior to his title shot with Johnson were against opponents with records of 8-4 and 5-5-1, prior to them he lost, already had 9 losses in less than 40 fights. Battling Jim 28-10-5. All these guys were top heavyweights more deserving or title shots than Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and Wills who all fought one another?

Thanks for reminding me. Jack Johnson did indeed attempt to fight Harry Wills as well!

Aug 6 1921 The Evening Star

Speaking of Harry, you know who really should have fought him and had no excuse not to do so.....

[DeeMoney]

I guess I'll actually answer the question with some names. I'll list out the standard list of the top heavies and two separate numbers: the first is their (the opponent not Johnson's) shot to win against Johnson using the fighting rules and standards of his time- 20 rounds (cause I aint thinking about 45 which was rare) lots of clutching and wrestling allowed, oven mitt gloves. Second number is the odds I'd give them with more modern rules- 15 rounds, 8 oz gloves, ref breaks up holding and may deduct points for it. Both fighters know the rules.

Dempsey- 40/60
Tunney- 40/50
Louis- 50/75
Charles- 35/50
Marciano- 50/60
Patterson- 10/40
Liston- 50/75
Ali- 60/85
Frazier- 35/55
Foreman- 60/80
Holmes- 45/60
Tyson- 35/65
Holyfield- 45/65
Lewis- 55/80
Vitali- 40/65
Wlad- 40/60
Fury- 45/60

As I look at it, it seems to be that in my mind the era decides a lot I'd only make him a straight up dog fighting in his era against three others, but I'd only make him a favorite against one other fighting with more modern rules

[Bronson66]

[QUOTE=GhostofDempsey;n32493335]

What happened coward did you forget how to properly quote me?

The Battling Jim fight was a draw, Johnson struggled with him the whole way. I’ve posted many sources that you ignore and dismiss.

Ducking my questions and lying. You are Ivich and your account was banned here. Why? Your McVey account elsewhere was banned for several months. Why? Still ducking the question and lying.

Lol, now the gaslighting and victimhood begins. You’ve been insulting me on all these posts and now you want to cry when I return fire? Typical.

A novice with less than ten fights goes over 20 rounds with a prime “great” fighter three times and he’s not competitive. He lasted longer than all the never-was no-hopers you hype as great wins on here.

I don’t want or need your respect. In fact I would rather not be liked by you, that would put me in the same company as my stalker and your little sister. Bye grumpy, lol.

Post a primary source,[you do know what that is right,] that states Battling Jim was robbed?

Johnson was fighting with a broken arm why,in all your waffle about this fight have you never mentioned that?

Post a primary source that states McVey was competitive against Johnson ,in any of their three fights?

How many rounds were awarded to McVey in each of those three fights?

Have you even ever actually read a round by round report of any of those three fights?

I'm betting the answer is no!

How many times was McVey knocked down?

His face was described as looking like ,,"an overripe tomato," "like a goat had chewed on it," "one side was 3 inches out of plumb."

Johnson finished each fight unmarked.

You just can't admit Johnson gave him three terrible beatings ,something every single newspaper that covered the fights were unanimous in stating.

Your hate blinds you and makes your responses on this subject ludicrous.

Shannon Briggs went the distance with Vitali .Was he competitive?

Jeff Lacy went the distance with Calzaghe.Was he competitive?

Randy Cobb went the distance wth Holmes.Was he competitive

Sam Langford went the distance with Johnson.Was he competitive?

Johnson was prime in1903, with a record of 11-3-6 and weighing178lbs,5 years before he won the title?

Johnson was prime in1903 ,with a record of15-3-6 , 5 years before he won the title?

Johnson was prime in1904 ,with a record of 18-3-6 , 4 years before he won the title?

This is an absurd statement, motivated by sheer, blind hatred.

Like all your statements about Johnson.

Now put up a funny face in response,you might as well ,you've nothing else to offer!

[Bronson66]

Correct. All of the Sundowners had boatloads of unrecorded paid fights. In the first quarter of the 20th century, shockingly; white newspapers believed they had more important things to do than cover the doings inside the juke joints.

Dave Hatch, Hunter Briscoe, Black Fitzsimmons (Ulysses Cannon), "Bird Legs" Collins, Vernon Campbell, Jim Hightower, W. E. Price, Billy Hill, Harris "Black Pearl" Martin, Black Strap, Bob "Stonewall" Allen, Belfield Walcott, Harry Calvers, "Black Frank" Taylor, Kid Henry, Jim Janey, Tiger Gains, "Darky" Griffin, Louis Young, Bob Long, "Cyclone" Bill Larry, Charles Jennings, Pepper Griffin, George Russell, John W. Curtis, Rufus Graham, Leo Johnson and Battling Chester are just a few other EXCEPTIONAL black fighters who's records are under the microscope of research, and hundreds of previously undiscovered bouts have already been verified.

The grand champion of the era's black fighters who were cheated out of their proper legacy was one Morris Harris, the muscular Philadelphian who won in the neighborhood of 200 fights, and most of what was recorded for posterity are his losses.

Unfortunately this fact does not fit into Ghost's narrative. Below is the footnote below McVeys first named opponent

					2 0 0		Auditorium, Oxnard	W-KO	6/20
McVea had fought twice before coming to Oxnard, once in Salinas and once in Australia; he had a reported record of 6-0-2 prior to this fight. If this is correct, McVey was having his 15th fight when he fought the 20 fight Johnson the first time.

His 18th fight to Johnson's 24th, the second time they met.

His 19th ,the third time to Johnson's 27th.

[Willow The Wisp]

It's sounds squeamish, I know; but I personally watch for when debates go insulting on message boards. I back off a little because I don't want to contribute (much) to any poster; well informed or not, purposely antagonistic or not; being driven away from the herd.
Why is this anything to care about for us, collectively?

Because an enormous amount of....lower tier intelligence persons exist on these boards. Finding people who know much about Boxing; especially the complex subset of Boxing history, is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
That's why on the History board, while the base for an infinitely better class of poster, is comparatively sparse.
The metaphor is eateries that use white table clothes I suppose. Less traffic, better cuisine.

Can we really spare anyone????????

Still and all; we do have to deal with some pretty hard heads, don't we?