Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[BKM-]

It's been awhile since I've played fantasy boxing featuring an old timer. Harmless fun.
I've always held Johnson in very high esteem; both as a giant historical figure, helping the increasingly globalized world come to grips with parity amongst peoples of all kinds (in a not so subtle way), and as a fighter, possessed with unsurpassed instincts, reflexes, speed, athleticism, and what the youngsters today call "ring IQ".
Johnson's fights against the very best the world could throw at him in the personages of John "Klon***e" Haynes the "Black Hercules", Sam "The Boston Tar Baby" Langford, "Texas" Jim McCormick, Jim Scanlan, Billy Stift, "Mexican" Pete Everett, Hank Griffin, Joe Kennedy, Jack Jeffries, Frank Childs, George Gardner, Fred Russell, "Denver" Ed Martin, Sandy Ferguson, Joe Butler, Sam McVey, Claude "Black Bill" Brooks, Jim Jeffords, Joe Jeanette, Walter Johnson, Jack Monroe, Morris Harris, Joe Grim, "Young" Peter Jackson, Charlie Haghey, Billy Dunning, Peter Felix, Bill Lang, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley "Kid" Cutler, Charles "Sailor" Burke, "Big" Ben Taylor, "Fireman" Jim Flynn, Tommy Burns, "Philadelphia" Jack O'Brien, Tony Ross, Al Kaufman, Stanley Ketchel, James J. Jeffries, "Battling" Jim Johnson, Frank Moran and others, demonstrated a superb natural instinct for combat in assembling a fine, fine body of work.
As a hobby outside of actual fighting, Johnson sharpened his conditioning and balance engaging in wrestling only matches, which provided him not only highly practical workouts, but sheer, punch-free pleasure. Johnson reigned during the correct time to do this, as Professional Wresting of the (mostly) real kind, saw it's high water mark between 1880 and 1914.
While living in Europe well into his tenure as champion, Jack found a very good side living winning and sometimes losing against some of the best grapplers on the continent, and in the long tradition of Vero Small (Samuel Hadley), Captain James Daly, Professor William Miller, Patty Ryan, Gus Lambert and many others before him, Johnson was, in addition to boxing, a skilled catch wrestler, competing against the likes of Willi Urbach, Jimmy Easson, Andre Sproul, Joe Rogers, Aimable de la Calmette, Fred Marcussen, Martin Zikoff, Charles Hansen, Rudolf Grüneisen, Iivari Tuomiso, Ernst Erlenkamp, Saki Hevonpää, Oswald Buchheim, Heinrich Lobmayer, Heinrich Weber, Buzovac Mourzouck, Paul Westergaard-Schmidt and Josef Smejkal, each among the best grapplers in Europe; and Johnson often won; showing a deeply developed athleticism in so doing.
In 1998, ESPN, located in Bristol, Connecticut, USA, finalized a $100 million purchase of the 16,000+ film library from manager, film editor and boxing impresario Bill Cayton, the owner of Big Fights, Inc, co-owned with his one time business partner, the late Jimmy Jacobs, and I was asked by then president George Bodenheimer to come in on a two year consulting contract to sort, catalog, restore and otherwise curate ESPN's massive library.
As it happened, as this enriching project was finishing up, I was contacted almost on queue by Englishman John Sheppard, in order to provide guidance on the construction of his own pet project, which would become BoxRec.com. That project would grow quickly utilizing existing resources and newer technologies for research, which had been my forte for many years. Soon enough, BoxRec would replace, for use by the common fan, the old Ring Record Book & Encyclopedia and the more contemporary FightFax, the original digital Boxing record keeper.
I mention these things in conjunction with this particular thread, on this beautiful Sunday in June, to warn fans and part-time researchers to avoid use of the partial records provided by BoxRec when assesing the quality of fighters within Johnson's pre WW I Era, as doing so presents a highly inaccurate account of fighters and their full record, and depth.
Now, as a (self proclaimed) erudite (Ha!) Fight film consuming fanboy accross the decades, it has occurred to me once or thrice, to compare Hall of Famer A with Hall of Famer B, and toss my conclusions into the wind of the silent forest.

My bold font comment, then, is this, Boxing Scene forums compadres:

If I make a grid. And I list 100 names down, and the same 100 names across. And I list who I believe are the 100 best heavyweights of all (modern rules) time from 1 to 100 in both the Vertical and Horizontal spaces.
And then, using my very best powers of deduction, detachment and wisdom to imagine each fight between the converging lines and rows, and I complete my grid; this is what I will discover:
Nobody on my grid list goes undefeated.
No one.
Not Johnson, nor Langford, nor McCarty, nor Dempsey, nor Louis, nor Marciano, or Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Klitschko, Fury or Usyk.

Jack Johnson, in conclusion, is found very near the top.

Of course; as has been pointed out to me many times on this and the other modern message boards; I don't know anything of great value about this sport.
So your guess is as good as mine.

But Johnson, set to 15 rounders under 21st century rules and regulations; would have beaten most.

Thanks for sharing the information about Johnson's interest and competition in Catch Wrestling. I didn't know his grappling prowess went that deep. It explains why they say the previously physically strongest HW that had been there before him(Jeffries) finally faced him and felt that he was the significantly weaker man in the clinch.

Having said this, Johnson was clearly a great athlete who could adapt. Perhaps he could have adapted extremely well to the new boxing styles of the 20th century and the rules, particularly the larger gloves and shorter amount of rounds. But I think these threads are not made that way, it's essentially plucking a HW from his own era exactly the way he was and having him fight a different opponent from another era.

[GhostofDempsey]

From his era, a prime Langford, Jeannette, McVey, and possibly even Wills would be favored to win IMO. A prime Jeffries is far more competitive and makes it a 50/50 fight.

Across all eras he doesn’t fair very well. Dempsey, Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Sharkey, Louis, Schmeling, Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Patterson, Liston and so forth all beat him.

[them_apples]

It's been awhile since I've played fantasy boxing featuring an old timer. Harmless fun.
I've always held Johnson in very high esteem; both as a giant historical figure, helping the increasingly globalized world come to grips with parity amongst peoples of all kinds (in a not so subtle way), and as a fighter, possessed with unsurpassed instincts, reflexes, speed, athleticism, and what the youngsters today call "ring IQ".
Johnson's fights against the very best the world could throw at him in the personages of John "Klon***e" Haynes the "Black Hercules", Sam "The Boston Tar Baby" Langford, "Texas" Jim McCormick, Jim Scanlan, Billy Stift, "Mexican" Pete Everett, Hank Griffin, Joe Kennedy, Jack Jeffries, Frank Childs, George Gardner, Fred Russell, "Denver" Ed Martin, Sandy Ferguson, Joe Butler, Sam McVey, Claude "Black Bill" Brooks, Jim Jeffords, Joe Jeanette, Walter Johnson, Jack Monroe, Morris Harris, Joe Grim, "Young" Peter Jackson, Charlie Haghey, Billy Dunning, Peter Felix, Bill Lang, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley "Kid" Cutler, Charles "Sailor" Burke, "Big" Ben Taylor, "Fireman" Jim Flynn, Tommy Burns, "Philadelphia" Jack O'Brien, Tony Ross, Al Kaufman, Stanley Ketchel, James J. Jeffries, "Battling" Jim Johnson, Frank Moran and others, demonstrated a superb natural instinct for combat in assembling a fine, fine body of work.
As a hobby outside of actual fighting, Johnson sharpened his conditioning and balance engaging in wrestling only matches, which provided him not only highly practical workouts, but sheer, punch-free pleasure. Johnson reigned during the correct time to do this, as Professional Wresting of the (mostly) real kind, saw it's high water mark between 1880 and 1914.
While living in Europe well into his tenure as champion, Jack found a very good side living winning and sometimes losing against some of the best grapplers on the continent, and in the long tradition of Vero Small (Samuel Hadley), Captain James Daly, Professor William Miller, Patty Ryan, Gus Lambert and many others before him, Johnson was, in addition to boxing, a skilled catch wrestler, competing against the likes of Willi Urbach, Jimmy Easson, Andre Sproul, Joe Rogers, Aimable de la Calmette, Fred Marcussen, Martin Zikoff, Charles Hansen, Rudolf Grüneisen, Iivari Tuomiso, Ernst Erlenkamp, Saki Hevonpää, Oswald Buchheim, Heinrich Lobmayer, Heinrich Weber, Buzovac Mourzouck, Paul Westergaard-Schmidt and Josef Smejkal, each among the best grapplers in Europe; and Johnson often won; showing a deeply developed athleticism in so doing.
In 1998, ESPN, located in Bristol, Connecticut, USA, finalized a $100 million purchase of the 16,000+ film library from manager, film editor and boxing impresario Bill Cayton, the owner of Big Fights, Inc, co-owned with his one time business partner, the late Jimmy Jacobs, and I was asked by then president George Bodenheimer to come in on a two year consulting contract to sort, catalog, restore and otherwise curate ESPN's massive library.
As it happened, as this enriching project was finishing up, I was contacted almost on queue by Englishman John Sheppard, in order to provide guidance on the construction of his own pet project, which would become BoxRec.com. That project would grow quickly utilizing existing resources and newer technologies for research, which had been my forte for many years. Soon enough, BoxRec would replace, for use by the common fan, the old Ring Record Book & Encyclopedia and the more contemporary FightFax, the original digital Boxing record keeper.
I mention these things in conjunction with this particular thread, on this beautiful Sunday in June, to warn fans and part-time researchers to avoid use of the partial records provided by BoxRec when assesing the quality of fighters within Johnson's pre WW I Era, as doing so presents a highly inaccurate account of fighters and their full record, and depth.
Now, as a (self proclaimed) erudite (Ha!) Fight film consuming fanboy accross the decades, it has occurred to me once or thrice, to compare Hall of Famer A with Hall of Famer B, and toss my conclusions into the wind of the silent forest.

My bold font comment, then, is this, Boxing Scene forums compadres:

If I make a grid. And I list 100 names down, and the same 100 names across. And I list who I believe are the 100 best heavyweights of all (modern rules) time from 1 to 100 in both the Vertical and Horizontal spaces.
And then, using my very best powers of deduction, detachment and wisdom to imagine each fight between the converging lines and rows, and I complete my grid; this is what I will discover:
Nobody on my grid list goes undefeated.
No one.
Not Johnson, nor Langford, nor McCarty, nor Dempsey, nor Louis, nor Marciano, or Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Klitschko, Fury or Usyk.

Jack Johnson, in conclusion, is found very near the top.

Of course; as has been pointed out to me many times on this and the other modern message boards; I don't know anything of great value about this sport.
So your guess is as good as mine.

But Johnson, set to 15 rounders under 21st century rules and regulations; would have beaten most.�

Oh you know plenty sir

no need to be humble

great post

[them_apples]

Thanks for sharing the information about Johnson's interest and competition in Catch Wrestling. I didn't know his grappling prowess went that deep. It explains why they say the previously physically strongest HW that had been there before him(Jeffries) finally faced him and felt that he was the significantly weaker man in the clinch.

Having said this, Johnson was clearly a great athlete who could adapt. Perhaps he could have adapted extremely well to the new boxing styles of the 20th century and the rules, particularly the larger gloves and shorter amount of rounds. But I think these threads are not made that way, it's essentially plucking a HW from his own era exactly the way he was and having him fight a different opponent from another era.

Jeffries was sick and nothing like his prime, but Johnson likely still beats him. I forget who was in Jeffries camp, but they ( a former fighter) said he looked aweful and should not have been fighting. He was recovering from some illness.

[them_apples]

From his era, a prime Langford, Jeannette, McVey, and possibly even Wills would be favored to win IMO. A prime Jeffries is far more competitive and makes it a 50/50 fight.

Across all eras he doesn’t fair very well. Dempsey, Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Sharkey, Louis, Schmeling, Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Patterson, Liston and so forth all beat him.

They are more exciting on old film cause they are primarily strikers. However, I don’t think their style would necessarily beat his style

[GhostofDempsey]

They are more exciting on old film cause they are primarily strikers. However, I donât think their style would necessarily beat his style

They fought him competitively while they were novices. At heir best they are all favored IMO.

[them_apples]

They fought him competitively while they were novices. At heir best they are all favored IMO.

Any articles or more info on this? Never heard this before

[GhostofDempsey]

Any articles or more info on this? Never heard this before

You never heard that Jeannette or McVey fought Johnson competitively? Or are you asking about someone else?

[them_apples]

You never heard that Jeannette or McVey fought Johnson competitively? Or are you asking about someone else?

ah I misunderstood you. the second line, of younger fighters. my fault

[DeeMoney]

It's been awhile since I've played fantasy boxing featuring an old timer. Harmless fun.
I've always held Johnson in very high esteem; both as a giant historical figure, helping the increasingly globalized world come to grips with parity amongst peoples of all kinds (in a not so subtle way), and as a fighter, possessed with unsurpassed instincts, reflexes, speed, athleticism, and what the youngsters today call "ring IQ".
Johnson's fights against the very best the world could throw at him in the personages of John "Klon***e" Haynes the "Black Hercules", Sam "The Boston Tar Baby" Langford, "Texas" Jim McCormick, Jim Scanlan, Billy Stift, "Mexican" Pete Everett, Hank Griffin, Joe Kennedy, Jack Jeffries, Frank Childs, George Gardner, Fred Russell, "Denver" Ed Martin, Sandy Ferguson, Joe Butler, Sam McVey, Claude "Black Bill" Brooks, Jim Jeffords, Joe Jeanette, Walter Johnson, Jack Monroe, Morris Harris, Joe Grim, "Young" Peter Jackson, Charlie Haghey, Billy Dunning, Peter Felix, Bill Lang, Bob Fitzsimmons, Charley "Kid" Cutler, Charles "Sailor" Burke, "Big" Ben Taylor, "Fireman" Jim Flynn, Tommy Burns, "Philadelphia" Jack O'Brien, Tony Ross, Al Kaufman, Stanley Ketchel, James J. Jeffries, "Battling" Jim Johnson, Frank Moran and others, demonstrated a superb natural instinct for combat in assembling a fine, fine body of work.
As a hobby outside of actual fighting, Johnson sharpened his conditioning and balance engaging in wrestling only matches, which provided him not only highly practical workouts, but sheer, punch-free pleasure. Johnson reigned during the correct time to do this, as Professional Wresting of the (mostly) real kind, saw it's high water mark between 1880 and 1914.
While living in Europe well into his tenure as champion, Jack found a very good side living winning and sometimes losing against some of the best grapplers on the continent, and in the long tradition of Vero Small (Samuel Hadley), Captain James Daly, Professor William Miller, Patty Ryan, Gus Lambert and many others before him, Johnson was, in addition to boxing, a skilled catch wrestler, competing against the likes of Willi Urbach, Jimmy Easson, Andre Sproul, Joe Rogers, Aimable de la Calmette, Fred Marcussen, Martin Zikoff, Charles Hansen, Rudolf Grüneisen, Iivari Tuomiso, Ernst Erlenkamp, Saki Hevonpää, Oswald Buchheim, Heinrich Lobmayer, Heinrich Weber, Buzovac Mourzouck, Paul Westergaard-Schmidt and Josef Smejkal, each among the best grapplers in Europe; and Johnson often won; showing a deeply developed athleticism in so doing.
In 1998, ESPN, located in Bristol, Connecticut, USA, finalized a $100 million purchase of the 16,000+ film library from manager, film editor and boxing impresario Bill Cayton, the owner of Big Fights, Inc, co-owned with his one time business partner, the late Jimmy Jacobs, and I was asked by then president George Bodenheimer to come in on a two year consulting contract to sort, catalog, restore and otherwise curate ESPN's massive library.
As it happened, as this enriching project was finishing up, I was contacted almost on queue by Englishman John Sheppard, in order to provide guidance on the construction of his own pet project, which would become BoxRec.com. That project would grow quickly utilizing existing resources and newer technologies for research, which had been my forte for many years. Soon enough, BoxRec would replace, for use by the common fan, the old Ring Record Book & Encyclopedia and the more contemporary FightFax, the original digital Boxing record keeper.
I mention these things in conjunction with this particular thread, on this beautiful Sunday in June, to warn fans and part-time researchers to avoid use of the partial records provided by BoxRec when assesing the quality of fighters within Johnson's pre WW I Era, as doing so presents a highly inaccurate account of fighters and their full record, and depth.
Now, as a (self proclaimed) erudite (Ha!) Fight film consuming fanboy accross the decades, it has occurred to me once or thrice, to compare Hall of Famer A with Hall of Famer B, and toss my conclusions into the wind of the silent forest.

My bold font comment, then, is this, Boxing Scene forums compadres:

If I make a grid. And I list 100 names down, and the same 100 names across. And I list who I believe are the 100 best heavyweights of all (modern rules) time from 1 to 100 in both the Vertical and Horizontal spaces.
And then, using my very best powers of deduction, detachment and wisdom to imagine each fight between the converging lines and rows, and I complete my grid; this is what I will discover:
Nobody on my grid list goes undefeated.
No one.
Not Johnson, nor Langford, nor McCarty, nor Dempsey, nor Louis, nor Marciano, or Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Klitschko, Fury or Usyk.

Jack Johnson, in conclusion, is found very near the top.

Of course; as has been pointed out to me many times on this and the other modern message boards; I don't know anything of great value about this sport.
So your guess is as good as mine.

But Johnson, set to 15 rounders under 21st century rules and regulations; would have beaten most.

I actually like the idea of the grid, but I wouldn't even do it with each guy fighting the other just once. I'd say do it where each fights the other at least 5-9 times. Then see who you have with the most wins.

As for Johnson, I'd probably agree with him beating most if you did it with the top 100, but I don't know if he'd beat most if you did it with the top 20- especially with modern rules. Bulkier gloves, more restrictions of grappling, etc. Not saying he couldn't learn and adapt to those rules, but thats not who he was so its difficult to project on him being that.

You let him fight with his rules, against some more modern fighters- even those who I feel were better than him, then the rule change gives him a better shot and I may favor him. more often than not. Take him versus a Spinks for example. Old rules, then he's catching a bunch of shots with those oven mitt gloves, wrapping up Spinks and wrestling him around on the inside. Modern rules, that Spinks Jinx is landing more than just a couple times (even if Johnson parries away his fare share).

He really had a great style for his time.