Tunney-Greb 2

[Willie Pep 229]

- - How did Greb get out of WW1?

Or did he serve?

Every American draft had different criteria, depending on the need. Willow above may well have nailed what happened with Greb.

I can tell you that the Federally run draft during the American Civil War (we all know) was a disaster.

The Progressives (Wilson Administration) handled the situation better by assigning the responsibility to the individual States, giving each a quota to meet. The States then in turn allowed local jurisdictions to take the proposed criteria and apply it to individual exemptions as they saw fit. It kept the process closer to the people and it created less resentment.

[Ivich]

Ok but you can't count the Pittsburgh papers' opinions. Greb was a lesser God to the folks in Pittsburgh.

I think your Tunney quote says it best. Every fighter thinks he won the close ones, that only makes sense. But Tunney was willing to put it on the line each time, there was no duck in Tunney, and in the end proved himself the better fighter IMHO. That's why he got the Dempsey fight.

Truth be told I'm not sure why you two guys are still arguing, you both made your points and in a sense have actually ended up pretty close to drawing the same conclusion.

P.S. Let's not start bad mouthing Wlie Pep. No need for that. If he says he won a round without throwing a punch, what can one do except quote Abraham Lincoln: "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

What I have read is that Pep has changed the round, even at times the fight, when retelling the story. But one sports writer did argue that in one of the rounds Pep pointed to, Pep threw only two or three weak defensive punches and in the end won the round on two of the three judges score cards. So it may have almost been true.

Not that he ever went to the same extreme but it's not too hard to find rounds where Ali won rounds not doing much fighting and mostly just making himself look good by moving with grace and style.

I'm certainly no expert on Greb but Pittsburgh Newpapers were often negative when writing up his fights.The local public may have liked him but quite a few of the local press weren't so enthused.

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm certainly no expert on Greb but Pittsburgh Newpapers were often negative when writing up his fights.The local public may have liked him but quite a few of the local press weren't so enthused.

That can happen to a local boy.

Get a bad reputation with the newspaper guys for whatever reason, just a precieved snub, and they'll use their column to pay you bpack in spades.

Example

I remember reading a Jeff Ryan article in KO back on the 80s. He was talking about how Tyson was disrespectful to the media, (or at least him, anyway.)

The incident involved Tyson getting dressed in a locker room after training and saying to Ryan "hand me my socks." Ryan looked down and saw that the socks were closer to Tyson than they were to Ryan so he didn't move. Tyson ended the interview.

Silly yes! But Ryan was pissed enough to write about it.

Some people (celebrities) can be bullies even in the smallest ways. Ryan never forgave Tyson.

You're correct. That they (Pittsburgh newspapers) were willing criticize Greb when it was proper to do so, gives them credibility here.

Then again you know how groups can be; how they can rally around their own against outsiders --> 'it's OK for us to say it, but you can't.'

P.S. Even the Boston newspapers had to work hard to like Ted Williams. He could rub everyone the wrong way.

[QueensburyRules]

That can happen to a local boy.

Get a bad reputation with the newspaper guys for whatever reason, just a precieved snub, and they'll use their column to pay you bpack in spades.

Example

I remember reading a Jeff Ryan article in KO back on the 80s. He was talking about how Tyson was disrespectful to the media, (or at least him, anyway.)

The incident involved Tyson getting dressed in a locker room after training and saying to Ryan "hand me my socks." Ryan looked down and saw that the socks were closer to Tyson than they were to Ryan so he didn't move. Tyson ended the interview.

Silly yes! But Ryan was pissed enough to write about it.

Some people (celebrities) can be bullies even in the smallest ways. Ryan never forgave Tyson.

You're correct. That they (Pittsburgh newspapers) were willing criticize Greb when it was proper to do so, gives them credibility here.

Then again you know how groups can be; how they can rally around their own against outsiders --> 'it's OK for us to say it, but you can't.'

P.S. Even the Boston newspapers had to work hard to like Ted Williams. He could rub everyone the wrong way.

- - Boston a weird place of original settlers that never let the rest of America forget it.

Ted weren't never beloved because he broke the mold of the traditional slugger and brooked no criticism about it. It wasn't until his last at bat age 42 on an otherwise miserably muggy day at the ballpark for everyone there where he got his standing waves of ovation that generated his first ever tip of the ball cap after he hit his last pitch out of the park.

Served baseball thereafter as an enthusiastic manager and batting instructor. Just before he passed in his 80s, at the '99 All Star game, they drove him out to the pitcher's mound crippled in a golf cart where he stood up as the Biggest Guy on the field among the cynical multimillion dollar ball players now gushing over the legend they had only known from baseball cards.

[Dr. Z]

No I am saying he was a dirty fouler, not the worst one of all time mind you. I agree with lots of boxing writers and the IBOF when they said this:



I have researched the man enough to say that, not that I'm an expert on him. The point of Greb using his head was mentioned by Tunneys's corner and other writers.

Now are you against clinching to the point of pointing another out another thread? Or do you give Greb a pass?



Sure, sure going another fighter in the eye is clean.

More on the head butt in the first fight.










There's more if I look. Still think Greb was a clean fighter??? Asking you this as well as what do you think of his clinching? I have nothing to back them up you say? Do you read my replies? They all say the same thing. Greb was considered dirty and he butted Tunney as stated.

@ Jab,

You're not taking my facts as givens. You aren't answering my question regarding clinching. And you seem to have a different set of standards for Greb.

I already told you that Tunney had a rough first and isn't likely to remember that much from it. The facts that referee an had meet to talk to Greb several minutes before the fight and Greb had to curb his normal MO should mean something to you. But it doesn't.

I have not doubt the Greb was the better in the 2nd fight between the two, but that was not what I was talking about and a one liner from a fight report is hardly a fight review.

You're wrong, more than one fighter called Greb dirty.

It appears that Greb did cliched like Wlad in this one. Yet he is Mr. Clean in your eyes? Okay I've got it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, as in this case I sprinkled in plenty of salt in the hay. You're right I can't infulence your opinion. You'll only dig in your heels further and move goal posts. If I find the Greb quote about him doing anything but kick a man, I'll add it, but you and I think you a I are pretty much done talking about these points.

[JAB5239]

@ Jab,

You're not taking my facts as givens. You aren't answering my question regarding clinching. And you seem to have a different set of standards for Greb.

I already told you that Tunney had a rough first and isn't likely to remember that much from it. The facts that referee an had meet to talk to Greb several minutes before the fight and Greb had to curb his normal MO should mean something to you. But it doesn't.

I have not doubt the Greb was the better in the 2nd fight between the two, but that was not what I was talking about and a one liner from a fight report is hardly a fight review.

You're wrong, more than one fighter called Greb dirty.

It appears that Greb did cliched like Wlad in this one. Yet he is Mr. Clean in your eyes? Okay I've got it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, as in this case I sprinkled in plenty of salt in the hay. You're right I can't infulence your opinion. You'll only dig in your heels further and move goal posts. If I find the Greb quote about him doing anything but kick a man, I'll add it, but you and I think you a I are pretty much done talking about these points.

You haven't given me facts. You have given me other people opinions. I've given you the opinions of fighters who have been in the ring with Greb.

You say Tunney isn't likely to Remember, but you offer no proof. That is your opinion only. Were Gibbons and Loughran likely to not remember either?

Greb did not clinch like Wlad in the second fight. You have exactly o e newspaper account saying he clinched more. The official round by round certainly doesn't describe it that way, and the fact is Greb fought nothing like the timid, safety first approach Wlad brought to the ring. Don't even bother opening that can of worms as we both know where it will lead.

Who are all of these fighters? An you supply me some quotes and links?

Intentionally fouling to hurt someone is dirty. Fouls that happen because of a particular style or in retaliation do not make a fighter dirty.

I'll stick with what I've said all along. Greb was no angel. He would retaliate, and fouls occurred given his go for broke style. But some of the best to face him swore he wasn't dirty. That carries more weight with me than the opinions of men who never shared the ring with him trading punches.

[Ivich]

That can happen to a local boy.

Get a bad reputation with the newspaper guys for whatever reason, just a precieved snub, and they'll use their column to pay you bpack in spades.

Example

I remember reading a Jeff Ryan article in KO back on the 80s. He was talking about how Tyson was disrespectful to the media, (or at least him, anyway.)

The incident involved Tyson getting dressed in a locker room after training and saying to Ryan "hand me my socks." Ryan looked down and saw that the socks were closer to Tyson than they were to Ryan so he didn't move. Tyson ended the interview.

Silly yes! But Ryan was pissed enough to write about it.

Some people (celebrities) can be bullies even in the smallest ways. Ryan never forgave Tyson.

You're correct. That they (Pittsburgh newspapers) were willing criticize Greb when it was proper to do so, gives them credibility here.

Then again you know how groups can be; how they can rally around their own against outsiders --> 'it's OK for us to say it, but you can't.'

P.S. Even the Boston newspapers had to work hard to like Ted Williams. He could rub everyone the wrong way.

One of the US's best boxing writers imo,George Kimball wrote that Tyson was very manipulative. I'm not familiar with Ted Williams,I'm a Brit,but didnt Joe Louis call him the best?.
Good post by the way.

[JAB5239]

One of the US's best boxing writers imo,George Kimball wrote that Tyson was very manipulative. I'm not familiar with Ted Williams,I'm a Brit,but didnt Joe Louis call him the best?.
Good post by the way.

Williams was a Baseball player. The best hitter in history.

[Dr. Z]

@jab5239,

Greb won fights with his thumbs, his forehead, his laces, holding and hitting, tripping, hitting on the break and hitting low

.



"

What's wrong?" he said irritably. "You've heard what all these people are saying about what an easy fight it was for me. They're crazy. It wasn't an easy fight, it was my hardest. I was so arm-weary and leg-tired from trying to knock Gene out I was in almost as bad shape as he was, but because he lost so much blood and I didn't lose any these boobs tell me I had a soft touch. Would you call an opponent a soft touch if you had hit him as hard as you could for 15 rounds and seldom made him stagger? Why, I couldn't even come close to dropping him. I was in there with a guy tonight who has an iron jaw and an iron will, and I don't look forward to our next meeting."

Someone said, "But you'll fight him again, won't you?"

"Sure. Fighting is my trade and I'll fight him any time, but it's gonna be a different story the next time."

The late Harry Keck, dean of Pittsburgh sports editors, was the first of only three well-known reporters to pick Gene to beat Dempsey for the heavyweight title in Philadelphia in 1926 and then to pick him to retain it in a rematch in Chicago the next year. Keck asked Greb that night if Tunney had hurt him at any time during the fight.

"Hell, yes," said Greb. "He hurt me in damn nearly every round—and him bleeding the way he was. Don't let anyone tell you he's just a counterpunching boxer who can't hurt you. He's the most punishing and most accurate hitter I ever fought. If you don't take the fight to him he'll take it to you, and any move you make is usually the wrong one. You end up catching a left in the puss and a stinging straight right to the body. I couldn't keep away from that right."

Greb praising Tunney.

the second fight between Greb and Tunney was arranged for February 23, 1923, again at Madison Square Garden. And again Tunney had bad luck in training coming down with the ‘flu. The Garden was a sell-out and there was no question of a postponement as far as Tunney was concerned.

That second battle was one of the most bitterly fought contests ever seen in New York. Greb was at his roaring best, using every trick and foul he had learned in the fight jungles across America.

After doing well for six rounds, Tunney felt the strength drain from his body. As if sensing his opponents weakness, Greb batted the New Yorker all over the ring. But his foul tactics did not escape referee Patsy Haley.

In the eighth round, Haley stopped the fight and told Harry to watch his step… or else. Greb promptly told Haley where he could go as they glared at each other, Tunney caught a welcome breather.

At the end of the twelfth, Haley threatened to disqualify Greb.

Harry turned to Red Mason, his then manager, and said, “Didya hear what this two bit ––– said about heaving me out’n the ring? I’ll turn him inside out if he tries it!”

At the end of fifteen vicious rounds, Tunney got the nod from the referee and one of the judges, making him American champ again. Then all hell broke loose in the Garden as the Pittsburgh and New York elements clashed.

More from the ref nearly DQing Greb. Researching Greb and the series with Tunney . In a fight vs another man, Greb got behind his man, and fried several foul punches.

[JAB5239]

@jab5239,

.



"

Greb praising Tunney.




More from the ref nearly DQing Greb. Researching Greb and the series with Tunney . In a fight vs another man, Greb got behind his man, and fried several foul punches.

You've already posted this information. I asked you what the ref told him to watch his step for? You had no definitive answer. I also asked why the ref threatened to DQ him. Also no definitive answer. Only assumptions.

I thought we were done with this?