Tunney-Greb 2

[JAB5239]

I've read Tunney's account of the fight,he doesn't mention being butted.Your quote is as conclusive as you could wish for imo.

To add to the original query Carpentier wanted no part of Greb,at any price.Harry would have crucified him imo.

That was a huge duck. If Greb had Gotten the Carpentier fight in 1921 instead of Dempsey he probably would have gotten Dempsey afterwards.

[JAB5239]

Bert Sugar was a salesman and repeater of long exploded myths.

Exactly.

[Willie Pep 229]

Bert Sugar?

Come on, you gotta do better than a guy who went to his grave saying Willie Pep won a round without throwing a punch.

So you believe Tunney's corner, but you think Gene himself is lying?

The New York times said it started with what some believe. Who are the "some"? Why aren't they sure? Even if it were true, was it intentional?

I've read the round by round of the fight. i think its beautiful though how youve picked out that one quote about clinching but have left out all the rest. And please....if Greb ever clinched like Wlad he'd be ridiculed to this day for it, just like Wlad.

Let me help you post the rest of those ringside opinions. You know, the 15 saying he should have one compared to the 4 that said Tunney should have won, and the 4 that saw it a draw?

• • yet then states that Greb scored more points but that the writer took points away because Greb clinched too often...
  • The NY Evening Telegram: Gave the fight to Tunney
  • NY American: gave it to Tunney
  • NY Times: gave it to Tunney
  • NY Evening World: Scored it a Draw and added that Tunney did not deserve the victory despite the writer stating he was a great admirer of Tunney's
  • NY Tribune: called it a draw stating the decision met with much disapproval, writing for the same paper Grantland Rice called it a poor decision
  • NY Herald: Gave it to Greb, another writer for the paper called it a draw
  • Evening Journal: Gave it to Greb
  • Evening Mail: Gave it to Greb
  • Philly Ledger: Gave it to Greb
  • NY Daily News: Stated a draw would have been a better decision.
  • Pittsburgh Post: Gave Tunney only two rounds.
  • Pittsburgh Gazette Times: Gave it to Greb
  • Pittsburgh Press: Gave it Greb

Total: 4 votes for Tunney, 15 votes for Greb, and 4 votes for a draw.

"Realizing there was some justice in Greb's claim of a bad decision, I offered him a return engagement." -Gene Tunney, A Man Must Fight, P. 162

Ok but you can't count the Pittsburgh papers' opinions. Greb was a lesser God to the folks in Pittsburgh.

I think your Tunney quote says it best. Every fighter thinks he won the close ones, that only makes sense. But Tunney was willing to put it on the line each time, there was no duck in Tunney, and in the end proved himself the better fighter IMHO. That's why he got the Dempsey fight.

Truth be told I'm not sure why you two guys are still arguing, you both made your points and in a sense have actually ended up pretty close to drawing the same conclusion.

P.S. Let's not start bad mouthing Wlie Pep. No need for that. If he says he won a round without throwing a punch, what can one do except quote Abraham Lincoln: "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

What I have read is that Pep has changed the round, even at times the fight, when retelling the story. But one sports writer did argue that in one of the rounds Pep pointed to, Pep threw only two or three weak defensive punches and in the end won the round on two of the three judges score cards. So it may have almost been true.

Not that he ever went to the same extreme but it's not too hard to find rounds where Ali won rounds not doing much fighting and mostly just making himself look good by moving with grace and style.

[JAB5239]

Ok but you can't count the Pittsburgh papers' opinions. Greb was a lesser God to the folks in Pittsburgh.

I think your Tunney quote says it best. Every fighter thinks he won the close ones, that only makes sense. But Tunney was willing to put it on the line each time, there was no duck in Tunney, and in the end proved himself the better fighter IMHO. That's why he got the Dempsey fight.

Truth be told I'm not sure why you two guys are still arguing, you both made your points and in a sense have actually ended up pretty close to drawing the same conclusion.

P.S. Let's not start bad mouthing Wlie Pep. No need for that. If he says he won a round without throwing a punch, what can one do except quote Abraham Lincoln: "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

What I have read is that Pep has changed the round, even at times the fight, when retelling the story. But one sports writer did argue that in one of the rounds Pep pointed to, Pep threw only two or three weak defensive punches and in the end won the round on two of the three judges score cards. So it may have almost been true.

Not that he ever went to the same extreme but it's not too hard to find rounds where Ali won rounds not doing much fighting and mostly just making himself look good by moving with grace and style.

If this is the case, wouldn't you need to be skeptical of the decision in Tunney's backyard and think the NY papers were sugarcoating their scores?

Im being a tad facetious. I get what you're saying, but it works both ways as well. Maybe not to the same degree, but Greb was always persona non grata in New York.

[QueensburyRules]

- - How did Greb get out of WW1?

Or did he serve?

[JAB5239]

- - How did Greb get out of WW1?

Or did he serve?

I don't know anything about him serving. My guess is his number never came up during the draft. The US didn't get involved until 1917, and it was over in 1918.

[Willie Pep 229]

If this is the case, wouldn't you need to be skeptical of the decision in Tunney's backyard and think the NY papers were sugarcoating their scores?

Im being a tad facetious. I get what you're saying, but it works both ways as well. Maybe not to the same degree, but Greb was always persona non grata in New York.

I agree - but as strange as it may sound in 1922-1926 it was Harry Wills who was New York's 'golden boy.' - Thought of as the uncrowded champion. James Farley (NYSAC) was a Tammanny operative charged with building (stealing away from the **********s) the Negro vote. He regularly championed Wills' cause. Playing him as a racial martyr.

Wills was so popular (in New York) they use to use him as a celebrity referee for the Milk Fund charity fights.

One night when he walked down to ringside to shake Dempsey's hand the crowd (MSG) Gave him a standing ovation. Then they booed Dempsey when he stood up.

Tunney never gained that kind of following. Even as HW Champion. As you suggested NY was a crowded town. Pittsburg didn't have as many celebrities to embrace.

[JAB5239]

I agree - but as strange as it may sound in 1922-1926 it was Harry Wills who was New York's 'golden boy.' - Thought of as the uncrowded champion. James Farley (NYSAC) was a Tammanny operative charged with building (stealing away from the **********s) the Negro vote. He regularly championed Wills' cause. Playing him as a racial martyr.

Wills was so popular (in New York) they use to use him as a celebrity referee for the Milk Fund charity fights.

One night when he walked down to ringside to shake Dempsey's hand the crowd (MSG) Gave him a standing ovation. Then they booed Dempsey when he stood up.

Tunney never gained that kind of following. Even as HW Champion. As you suggested NY was a crowded town. Pittsburg didn't have as many celebrities to embrace.

Very informative post, thank you!

[Willow The Wisp]

I don't know anything about him serving. My guess is his number never came up during the draft. The US didn't get involved until 1917, and it was over in 1918.

That is correct. Actually, Greb's father Pious was born in Ro�dorf, Am�neburg, Marburg, Hessen, Germany and he was raised in a German home. As such, Greb was "deprioritized" for the draft by the Pennsylvania Selective Service, under the office of the Provost Marshal General. However, Georges Carpentier, in wide contrast to Greb, was an aviator during World War I and was awarded two of the highest French military honors, the Croix de Guerre and the M�daille Militaire for his heroic service.

[JAB5239]

That is correct. Actually, Greb's father Pious was born in Ro�dorf, Am�neburg, Marburg, Hessen, Germany and he was raised in a German home. As such, Greb was "deprioritized" for the draft by the Pennsylvania Selective Service, under the office of the Provost Marshal General. However, Georges Carpentier, in wide contrast to Greb, was an aviator during World War I and was awarded two of the highest French military honors, the Croix de Guerre and the M�daille Militaire for his heroic service.

Great stuff....thanks!!