We could all benefit from looking at how a fighter was percieved back in the days before Dempsey. Dempsey and Ruth kind of changed a lot of the images associated with a great athlete because they were world class athletes that cut across the class system in America. This famous urban legend says it better than I can: "The service men were in England, and suddenly a rush of the Queen's guard was jostling them yelling "make way for the Queen!!!" Well, these were tough boys... from the fields of Kansas to nice ***ish boys fighting italians on the Grand concourse Pavillion in the Bronx... in other words these guys were having none of it.... " jostling back, at last resolved... the Murican boys dished out the ultimate insult... or so they thought... "To hell with the queen!!!" there was an ackward silence, where we to witness the bru haha to end them all? A quick thinking Quee'sman replied back "To hell with Joe Dimmaggio!" At that moment the two groups eyed each other with grudging respect, the same team... and the same quick tongues, East LOndon...Brooklyn, all the same in the end... there where smiles, laughs and a smooth prossession followed for all!
Now, this urban legend repeats... It comes on form from Babe Ruth, all the way up to Muhammed Ali with the same story sans the war. It is important primarily because we would not have heard this prior to the age of Dempsey and Ruth... No athlete was universal enough, people had not the technology to overcome the nativist sentiments that predominated regarding teams, athletes and fighters.
fighters like Sullivan, who in his later life travelled to Europe on the theatre circuit, were known more along the lines of going "pub to pub" and proclaiming "I can lick any man in the joint." But one must ask: what about boxing? Boxing was totem and taboo...Fighting was what was to be called "the sweet science" it was brutal, ugly, and resolute... it was the opportunity of a lifetime, and a way for a man to be a chieftan among his people... and who was "his people?" When slobodan milosevic proclaimed nationalistic sentiments, he confronted a world where people of all nationalities and creeds has lived together, developed sophisticated cities like Sarajevo, that were cosmopolitian enclaves, the envy of Paris and New York... It took him little time to destroy all this prosperity, good will, some of which persisted for generations, with a simple call to ethnic bravado. He is hardly the first...
It seems that human beings fetishize race, creed,nationality. Something which, ironickly, we have no control over... In the provincial world of the fighting man pre Dempsey, to be Irish, Scottish, African, ***ish was to be part of a clan... One was expected to represent his race, his creed, not education, values, or good will to all. This persisted even among those who wrote progressive tomes, like Jack London... London wrote socialist tomes declaring equality, human treatment, anti totalatarian epics... and in the same wonks demanded that "White mans burden" be taken up to defeat Johnson... a man he hated exclusively for being Black. and if any one wants confirmation of that? consider this: Johnson, like London, came from the strevedores on the docks, both men were bright, caustic, self possessed, and charming. London was so brain washed by white man's burden that he saw none of this, and proclaimed Johnson a public enemy for having the nerve to win...
In this world view there were no racists. There were individuals who were succesful which must indicate that the root cause of this success was their racial profile. The fighting man was a shaman... a chieftain to his race, the general on the field proclaiming that the fighting spirit of the Negro/irishman/*** was unparalled! Within this ignorance there were visionaries from places that might shock people. Lucky Luciano, Al Capone... Two men who credited the Lower East side ***ish crime bosses for educating them. Both men were against the La Cosa Nostra code of letting only Italians in... Both men were enablers for all, not interested in race, or creed.
I started this thread to hopefully give some perspective on institutionalized rascism in America, as it was part of boxing. While it does good to debate specifics about fighters like Dempsey who were motivated to fight certain opponents, and not others, we must all remember the complicated tapestry that predominated the cultural landscape in america prior to the twenties, when athletes first became universal in a way that forever changed the stakes of professional prize fighting. By the time Joe Louis came to be the people's champion, many ***s of that generation, including my father's family, viewed Louis, and Blacks, as good people who were repressed by the system. People like my Uncle Gabby used to hire Ricans and Black individuals in his Far Rockaway florsheim shoe store. I still remember as a kid, getting our shoes and meeting guys with afro picks in hair (I am dating myself lol), going with them to get Chinese food, and how my Uncle had their back and vice versa... The point is, things did change and when we look at Dempsey, right on a cusp of sorts, for me, it has been extremely complicated to form a solid opinion about what motivated Dempsey.
Jack was, like myself a real mutt, with native american, english, irish... where would Jack's racial loyalty lay? Tunney is easy when compared: Irish to the core, mentored by another irishman from cork county (James Corbett)... Tunney was all about protecting the Irish claim... including not giving any black fighters a chance.
Hope this all makes sense, comments, etc are always welcome.
Now, this urban legend repeats... It comes on form from Babe Ruth, all the way up to Muhammed Ali with the same story sans the war. It is important primarily because we would not have heard this prior to the age of Dempsey and Ruth... No athlete was universal enough, people had not the technology to overcome the nativist sentiments that predominated regarding teams, athletes and fighters.
fighters like Sullivan, who in his later life travelled to Europe on the theatre circuit, were known more along the lines of going "pub to pub" and proclaiming "I can lick any man in the joint." But one must ask: what about boxing? Boxing was totem and taboo...Fighting was what was to be called "the sweet science" it was brutal, ugly, and resolute... it was the opportunity of a lifetime, and a way for a man to be a chieftan among his people... and who was "his people?" When slobodan milosevic proclaimed nationalistic sentiments, he confronted a world where people of all nationalities and creeds has lived together, developed sophisticated cities like Sarajevo, that were cosmopolitian enclaves, the envy of Paris and New York... It took him little time to destroy all this prosperity, good will, some of which persisted for generations, with a simple call to ethnic bravado. He is hardly the first...
It seems that human beings fetishize race, creed,nationality. Something which, ironickly, we have no control over... In the provincial world of the fighting man pre Dempsey, to be Irish, Scottish, African, ***ish was to be part of a clan... One was expected to represent his race, his creed, not education, values, or good will to all. This persisted even among those who wrote progressive tomes, like Jack London... London wrote socialist tomes declaring equality, human treatment, anti totalatarian epics... and in the same wonks demanded that "White mans burden" be taken up to defeat Johnson... a man he hated exclusively for being Black. and if any one wants confirmation of that? consider this: Johnson, like London, came from the strevedores on the docks, both men were bright, caustic, self possessed, and charming. London was so brain washed by white man's burden that he saw none of this, and proclaimed Johnson a public enemy for having the nerve to win...
In this world view there were no racists. There were individuals who were succesful which must indicate that the root cause of this success was their racial profile. The fighting man was a shaman... a chieftain to his race, the general on the field proclaiming that the fighting spirit of the Negro/irishman/*** was unparalled! Within this ignorance there were visionaries from places that might shock people. Lucky Luciano, Al Capone... Two men who credited the Lower East side ***ish crime bosses for educating them. Both men were against the La Cosa Nostra code of letting only Italians in... Both men were enablers for all, not interested in race, or creed.
I started this thread to hopefully give some perspective on institutionalized rascism in America, as it was part of boxing. While it does good to debate specifics about fighters like Dempsey who were motivated to fight certain opponents, and not others, we must all remember the complicated tapestry that predominated the cultural landscape in america prior to the twenties, when athletes first became universal in a way that forever changed the stakes of professional prize fighting. By the time Joe Louis came to be the people's champion, many ***s of that generation, including my father's family, viewed Louis, and Blacks, as good people who were repressed by the system. People like my Uncle Gabby used to hire Ricans and Black individuals in his Far Rockaway florsheim shoe store. I still remember as a kid, getting our shoes and meeting guys with afro picks in hair (I am dating myself lol), going with them to get Chinese food, and how my Uncle had their back and vice versa... The point is, things did change and when we look at Dempsey, right on a cusp of sorts, for me, it has been extremely complicated to form a solid opinion about what motivated Dempsey.
Jack was, like myself a real mutt, with native american, english, irish... where would Jack's racial loyalty lay? Tunney is easy when compared: Irish to the core, mentored by another irishman from cork county (James Corbett)... Tunney was all about protecting the Irish claim... including not giving any black fighters a chance.
Hope this all makes sense, comments, etc are always welcome.
markusmod
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