Pre classical Boxing, the fighter as an image, as a totem and as a taboo (bare with me I know the title is a mouthful)

[billeau2]

If this was brought about by the other threads, let me just say that at the end of the day people were trying to draw an equivalency between Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson.

But Johnson stepped in the ring with the great black fighters of his time so we known exactly where he stands amongst them. The same can never be said about Dempsey.

I wouldn't compare the two... Many reasons for not doing so. I think Johnson was a legit rebel who went against being a totem for his clan... Johnson wanted American individualism, not affirmation from his tribe... I am referring to "tribe" as any ethnic/racial group, not to refer to Black, Irish, or any group exclusively. Johnson believed he was special, I don't think Dempsey held that belief. If one reads about Johnson, he says things like "my dad taught me how to stay healthy, take care of myself..." this indicates that he was parented, raised relatively well. Dempsey was,by contrast, not raised to believe in self exceptionalism, rather he was taught to survive.

Many people think Johnson liked white women to prove he could have one, I actually don't agree with this. I think Johnson wanted the freedom to enjoy what he wanted and was passionate about not being told his freedoms were limited. As far as fighting other Black fighters, if Johnson were with us and asked he might say something like: "Hey I am not so much a black man who happens to be a fighter, rather I am a fighter who just so happens to be a black man." In this respect Johnson wanted the fights that would produce the best wins financially and otherwise. Not that he didn't care for his fellow repressed Africans, but that he felt the real affront was best tackled by showing how good he was. Thats my take on JJ.

Dempsey, on the other hand was a little more complicated. What motivates a man who was not really self possessed the way JJ was? I can't say but here is a clue: Jack was an incredible writer, he wrote one of the best tomes on punching. He seemed motivated to make the common man aware of the power one possessed if they understood mechanics. To me this is a way of saying "hey anyone can do this! its not how great I am, it is the ability to learn the craft." Jack liked people, he used to hang out at his restaurant and enjoyed mingling with folks. But when it came to choosing who to fight? I draw a blank. I tend to believe Dempsey, perhaps due to a lack of confidance, left this to his handlers.



'

[GhostofDempsey]

Jack Dempsey never fought any of the great black fighters of that era, prime or otherwise.

That elevates Jack Johnson's resume and sets it apart from Dempsey's.

Johnson’s resume is full of middleweights, no hopers, washed up fighters, and fighters who never reached their prime. Got KTFO by Willard, Dempsey KTFO Willard. Johnson’s record post Willard is one of the worst of that era. Jeannette and McVey were never “great fighters”. Even less so when they had less than twenty and ten fights between them. McVey and Langford were only 20 years old when facing Jack, you know, that “too young” age Floyd and Tank talk about when ducking Loma. Even at 25 Tank was too young. Watch them double standards.

[OctoberRed]

Yeah I did lol. But my two 4 legged sons inspired me by barking and fighting with each other until they got a treat and let me write in peace.

This man is an untapped talent!

[billeau2]

This man is an untapped talent!

Thank you Red October. I enjoy posting because it gives me a chance to write while I am busy with other projects. I used to write a lot of articles for martial arts mags professionally. I stopped because the liability is crazy. I had written an article sold it and published it in Black belt Magazine and a friend of mine told me he saw a nice article of mine in another magazine... I thought to myself "Hummm? I don't remember writing somethng for those guys" well it turned out to be the same article I sold to Black Belt. I was all set to read the second magazine the riot act when i realized something... If Black Belt saw the article, they would sue me, not the other magazine, because the article belonged to them now, and when you freelance you send your articles to different mags, when they intend to publish they send you a contract, you get a check. So I would be the one they would recover damages from!

I just stopped after that, it was not worth the hassle.

[billeau2]

I neglected to mention "Taboo" when I wrote the OP in this thread... Fighting has always been associated with thuggery, ignorance and being a brute when solving a problem with violence. yet, when this violence is ritualized, it becomes noble, and a way to maintain honor in the social hierarchy. One can use an act of violence to save face, solve a problem, or show dominance over an adversary, provided the violence is ritualized in some fashion. Hence we have the duel, and we have competitions which are, recreations of the duel. Queensbury rules were a way to institute a code of violent actions that would not result in death to either combatent.

Our relationship to violence is not exclusive in the animal kingdom... Aristotle called man "the intelligent animal" but much like most mammals, the parts of our brain involved with pleasure, sex, and pain are all part of the same brain nexus, when we become violent. We get adrenaline, endorphins to deal with our injuries, and if it is all too much? we go into shock, sleeping away into eternity if we are not healed. This meant that the brutish act of the fight held a fascination for human kind... hence, the need to control it in most political states. This created a dichotomy where violence was either punished, or done so according to prescribed ritual actions.

The preclassical fighting man was percieved as an ambivalent beast... the police were there to stop efforts at letting him ply his trade, given the taboo against violence, but people demanded that the fight go on. And as Freud observed... what human beings repress eventually will become institutionalized... And so it was with boxing. Which became a social affair, a spectacle, a way of entertaining the masses... a way for the biggest, strongest, fastest, to enter into a social ritual: entering a ring, judges, corners, robes, gloves, a ref, etc. When society could not repress the urge for men to beat the snot out of each other, it embraced it...

[OctoberRed]

Thank you Red October. I enjoy posting because it gives me a chance to write while I am busy with other projects. I used to write a lot of articles for martial arts mags professionally. I stopped because the liability is crazy. I had written an article sold it and published it in Black belt Magazine and a friend of mine told me he saw a nice article of mine in another magazine... I thought to myself "Hummm? I don't remember writing somethng for those guys" well it turned out to be the same article I sold to Black Belt. I was all set to read the second magazine the riot act when i realized something... If Black Belt saw the article, they would sue me, not the other magazine, because the article belonged to them now, and when you freelance you send your articles to different mags, when they intend to publish they send you a contract, you get a check. So I would be the one they would recover damages from!

I just stopped after that, it was not worth the hassle.

I see a book at some point in your future