best boxing match of all time.

[Southpaw Stinger]

And Frazier came out the better man!

[butterfly1964]

And Frazier came out the better man!

true, but that was still the best fight eva!

[smasher]

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules Ali knew the conditions had been jacked perfectly in Ali's favor and could never beat Foreman again in America.[/QUOTE]

Did you know that was a 16 ft square ring? How is that jacked in Ali's favour? Stop making up ridiculous arguments. As for Ali never beating Foreman again, it was Foreman's choice to stay inactive after losing his title not Ali's. Foreman then lost to Young in an eliminator bout, so Foreman controlled HIS OWN destiny in not fighting Ali again....

[Heckler]

=========Why bring Foreman into this? Ali was tougher then Foreman, smarter then Foreman and more skilled then Foreman... and he won. The fact that he won is not all that AMAZING... Foreman was one dimensional and as a result got exposed. Ali dominated center-ring action, landed well timed counter-punches off the ropes, paced himself.. and increased the verocity of his attacks relative to Foremans tiring, rendered most of Foremans punches useless by rolling with them... Deflecting headshots of the gloves using subtle angles, blocking body shots with the elbows. I suggest you watch that fight a little more closely without your ridiculous bias. Ali is one of the very few men that had the ability to absorb punishment to both body and head, the smarts to execute that plan and the skills. If not the only. =================

** Ali is a shaking bag of jelly today because he wasn't blocking all those shots. He was tough then, propped up by you, judges, refs, and promoters, and he's paying the price now. No heavy champ in history ever loses to NeonLeon, but he does because finally some judges were just too embarassed to let him win another.

Nobody was a bigger fan of Ali than I, but I can see the smoke and mirrors in his comeback and that bothers you, which is good, because you are part of the reason he wouldn't retire and can't function today.

I brought Foreman into it because in the Frazier 3 fight it was Frazier doing the bulk of the damage like the Foreman fight. Sure, Ali won the fights, and I credit his heart and toughness, but all the conditions and circumstances, all the bounces went his way, all the way until he met Spinks. Ali arguably won as many as 10 controversial fights and never lost a controversial fight. What does that tell you?

This gets better and better... Ali defeated 3 greats, but CONVENIENTLY (FOR YOUR ALI-HATING AGENDA) they were all under circumstances where they wern't legitimate. Because the fight was fixed, or he got lucky, or a bunch of other ridiculous mis-haps you have produced in your mind... yeah right, he fought 3 greats, beat them all but the chances were such that none were legitimate. Your a ****en joke... and we know your a joke from the point you stated (quoting you loosely) 'The fact that ali collapsed the moment he stepped of his stool is not debateable'. Ali beat foreman fairly, and he would do it over and over again... you are becoming more delusional and ridiculous as this thread continues. There hasn't been one reputable boxing historian that has held a collective view close to yours, they would laugh at you. Ali didn't win close to 10 controversial decs at all, he lost to Norton twice... and ill admit that. Ali got beaten by leon spinks in 1978, and? an old man with parkinsons that should of retired got beaten far beyond his prime, he then come back and gave spinks a lesson in ringcraft... whats your ****en point. If you had all your chromosomes, and stopped being such a slanted moron you would look at the 66-75 version of Ali. How much damage Ali recieved during his carrer is irrelevant, its whether or not he raises his hand at the end of the fight. He beat Liston, he beat foreman and he beat frazier and won the HW championship 3 times... i dont glorify him, i dont need to, his record speaks for itself. Get the **** over it.

[LondonRingRules]

=======Ali got beaten by leon spinks in 1978, and? an old man with parkinsons that should of retired got beaten far beyond his prime, he then come back and gave spinks a lesson in ringcraft... whats your ****en point.==============

** My point is that Ali want to quit a tough match he was getting his guts handed to him against a fighter who had high blood pressure, a prediabetic condition, and was already blind in one eye before he ever stepped into the ring. My point is Ali had to whip himself into the best condition of his career just to outbox a little cracked out amateur who was knocked out more than any champ in history in his short career.

It was pretty obvious to everyone at that point who had won the latest Norton and Young fights and why the ref pulled the plug on Shavers when he tried to mimic ropadope and why Foreman never got his rematch. To those who wish to promote Ali based on his comeback, that's a double edged sword since he was not a dominant fighter anymore and was known more for his personality, struggles and toughness than skill or power, contrary to the fawning press which had done a 180 degree turn and no longer slagged on him as they had in the 60s.

[LondonRingRules]

========= As for Ali never beating Foreman again, it was Foreman's choice to stay inactive after losing his title not Ali's. Foreman then lost to Young in an eliminator bout, so Foreman controlled HIS OWN destiny in not fighting Ali again....========

** Foreman was 5-0, 5 KOs before Young since the Ali bout. Try again. Moreover Foreman was 2-0, 2 KO, targeting recent Ali title opponents that he easily KOed after they gave Ali life and death struggles. Foreman was also the cover of Sports Illustrated in 75, calling out Ali.

Foreman didn't control his own destiny. His contract was held by King as was Ali's. He says in his bio he was asked by King to carry Young or he wouldn't get a title shot, something his style obviously could not accomodate well. Young won the fight, and guess what? NO TITLE SHOT. Dude, Ali never wanted to see Young in the ring either. You boys really do need to study up more.

[smasher]

========= As for Ali never beating Foreman again, it was Foreman's choice to stay inactive after losing his title not Ali's. Foreman then lost to Young in an eliminator bout, so Foreman controlled HIS OWN destiny in not fighting Ali again....========

** Foreman was 5-0, 5 KOs before Young since the Ali bout. Try again. Moreover Foreman was 2-0, 2 KO, targeting recent Ali title opponents that he easily KOed after they gave Ali life and death struggles. Foreman was also the cover of Sports Illustrated in 75, calling out Ali.

Foreman didn't control his own destiny. His contract was held by King as was Ali's. He says in his bio he was asked by King to carry Young or he wouldn't get a title shot, something his style obviously could not accomodate well. Young won the fight, and guess what? NO TITLE SHOT. Dude, Ali never wanted to see Young in the ring either. You boys really do need to study up more.

Foreman went inactive for 15 months after losing to Ali then looked like **** against Lyle. Got dropped twice in one round and was hurt repeatedly in the fight. Was Foreman supposed to get a return fight based on this **** performance?

Foreman didn't 'target' Frazier. Frazier wanted to redeem his prior loss to Foreman. And wins over Dino Dennis, Pedro Agosta and Scott Ledoux weren't exactly great Foreman resume boosters. Their fight was mutual, except that Frazier needed Foreman more than the other way around. Was Foreman's win that impressive then against a fighter you claim had high blood pressure, pre-diabetic condition and blind in one eye?

Sure, Foreman carried Young. More Foreman nonsense. Foreman was afraid of punching himself out and fought at a more measured pace. Foreman carrying Young is yet another Foreman pile of nonsense. He had Young hurt in the 7th. Why didn't he KO him then? BECAUSE HE COULDN'T. I guess Foreman being floored in the 12th was more faking on Foreman's part. Maybe Foreman should have faked a first round KO loss then an over confident Ali really would have fought him, right?

He also was drugged against Ali, was robbed against Morrison and deserved the decision against Holyfield among other wonderful claims Foreman has made.

King did not have a contract on Ali, that's more ignorance on your part. Ali was a freelancer who fought for various promotors such as Arum and Lewis. Dunn, Norton, Evangelista, Shavers, Spinks twice...From 76-78 only the Evangelista fight promoted by King. Ali under contract? **** off, stop using bull**** to try and baffle the lesser informed.

Ali didn't tell Foreman to retire in '77. Once again FOREMAN CONTROLLED HIS OWN DESTINY. HE LOST TO YOUNG THEN RETIRED. TOO BAD SO SAD.

With Foreman retired Ali fought the next most dangerous hitter in the division Ernie Shavers.

Young won the Foreman fight and didn't get the Ali title shot because guess what.... HE LOST TO NORTON. Do YOUR homework DUDE...

[Heckler]

London ring rules, you are a joke... Ali was occupied with Frazier in 75, there is no way he was going to go through manila and then go on to fight Foreman, after Manila he was nothing more then a completely shot fighter. Im not debating foremans greatness so i dont see what your point is, but he got he got beaten by Ali and would always be beaten by Ali before Manila. Ali obviously blew your perception of Foreman being invincible out the window thus you cannot accept his loss and resort to ridiculous theories about the fight being fixed... contrary to reputable boxing historians accounts - Like Ali did against Norton, Foreman got exposed against Ali. Your nothing more then a complete headcase.

The very earliest Foreman could fight Ali would be in 1976. In 75' Foreman was still a complete headcase himself, he had hired a new trainer and boxing historians noted that the new 'controlled' style he used was not half as effective as the brutally destructive one he used PRE-74'. He doesn't have the fundemental ability or technique to fight in a controlled fashion and be effective. He would struggle with Ali in 76' although i would definately give the edge to him.

[Heckler]

=======Ali got beaten by leon spinks in 1978, and? an old man with parkinsons that should of retired got beaten far beyond his prime, he then come back and gave spinks a lesson in ringcraft... whats your ****en point.==============

** My point is that Ali want to quit a tough match he was getting his guts handed to him against a fighter who had high blood pressure, a prediabetic condition, and was already blind in one eye before he ever stepped into the ring. My point is Ali had to whip himself into the best condition of his career just to outbox a little cracked out amateur who was knocked out more than any champ in history in his short career.

It was pretty obvious to everyone at that point who had won the latest Norton and Young fights and why the ref pulled the plug on Shavers when he tried to mimic ropadope and why Foreman never got his rematch. To those who wish to promote Ali based on his comeback, that's a double edged sword since he was not a dominant fighter anymore and was known more for his personality, struggles and toughness than skill or power, contrary to the fawning press which had done a 180 degree turn and no longer slagged on him as they had in the 60s.

Like i said, informed boxing historians and any logically thinking individual knows that Ali wasn't quitting, never intended on quitting merely contemplated quitting as he did numerous times throughout his career... your tinfoil hat theories are just plain ridiculous and are the contrary to what any reputable boxing historian has said 'Ali contemplated qutting in round 10' - Frazier wasn't at his prime and was damaged goods, but no more so then ****en Ali. Oh so now you are going to discredit Ali for getting himself into shape when far past his prime at age 37 WITH PARKINSONS?. Shavers had a **** jaw and got beaten, simple. He achieved more in his comeback then he did in the 60's, he beat Frazier twice genuinely without a doubt and beat Foreman <-- those are HUGE accomplishments, so get the **** over it.

[Heckler]

'Ali came through the second and built a steady lead. In a promotional gimmick the television commentators at ringside were allowed access to the judges scorecards at the end of each round and so Angelo Dundee was able to gain access to the status of the fight. By the 12 Ali was ahead by eight rounds to four. Shavers came on strong in the 13th and 14th rounds, rocking Ali with some big punches. At big last three minutes for the challenger might have seen him home, yet Ali came back from the edge yet again. He stole the centre of the ring and stung Shavers with some cutting punches. It was enough.' If you actually watched the fight you would realise that Ali picked Shavers apart and racked up sufficent points throughout the fight, shavers was getting stung by hard flurries and had a glass jaw.

I admit, Ali didn't look great in the ring that night and shouldn't of been fighting at all.