Debuted against a champion and won

[Marchegiano]

Jack Fearns defeated HW champion Harry Sellers in his first and last professional match.

Sambo Sutton was at a ****fight when an argument broke out between Jem Ward and Jem Burns. A fight was brought to subscription, means they pooled money, and the men bet on chosen fighters. Sambo was just an entertainer who would do tricks for money, a street performer really. He's do things from on his head, including sparring with his feet like they are fists.

Sambo was put in with Jem's brother and HW champion Nick Ward and after Sambo pressed and punished Ward he quit.

They would rematch but the police broke it up. Making Sambo 1-0-1 against champion Nick Ward.


Y'all know any others?

[Willie Pep 229]

Jack Fearns defeated HW champion Harry Sellers in his first and last professional match.

Sambo Sutton was at a ****fight when an argument broke out between Jem Ward and Jem Burns. A fight was brought to subscription, means they pooled money, and the men bet on chosen fighters. Sambo was just an entertainer who would do tricks for money, a street performer really. He's do things from on his head, including sparring with his feet like they are fists.

Sambo was put in with Jem's brother and HW champion Nick Ward and after Sambo pressed and punished Ward he quit.

They would rematch but the police broke it up. Making Sambo 1-0-1 against champion Nick Ward.


Y'all know any others?

Great trivia!

Cyber Boxing Zone doesn't mention Ward as being Champion at the time of the Sambo Sutton match (1838), implying he won the title after defeating James Burke two years later (1840).

Should we look for a MQB (first time) fighter who defeated a sitting champion or one who defeated a future champion?

I think the latter might be more realistic, the only MQB first time fighter who got a shot at a sitting title, that I can think of, is Pete Rademacher (and he lost to Paterson).

What about the early days, when some fighters we still considered amateurs but had many fights under their belts, and then contested for the title, does that count?

Again I can think of one of these guys, but again he lost.

Jack Skelly lost to George Dixon. I realize this doesn't qualify because Skelly lost, but does the premise carry? Is the (amateur) experienced Skelly considered a first time fighter?

[Marchegiano]

Great trivia!

Cyber Boxing Zone doesn't mention Ward as being Champion at the time of the Sambo Sutton match (1838), implying he won the title after defeating James Burke two years later (1840).

Should we look for a MQB (first time) fighter who defeated a sitting champion or one who defeated a future champion?

I think the latter might be more realistic, the only MQB first time fighter who got a shot at a sitting title, that I can think of, is Pete Rademacher (and he lost to Paterson).

What about the early days, when some fighters we still considered amateurs but had many fights under their belts, and then contested for the title, does that count?

Again I can think of one of these guys, but again he lost.

Jack Skelly lost to George Dixon. I realize this doesn't qualify because Skelly lost, but does the premise carry? Is the (amateur) experienced Skelly considered a first time fighter?

Great post bud. I'd be interested in anything even loosely relative. If I knew of a Queensberry guy I would have listed him. Closest I know is Loma who everyone knows real well.



Yeah Burke was well more champion than Ward, either Ward, I agree with CBZ. At the time though, it was Jem Ward most people still saw as champion.

CBZ has Burke from 1833-39, which is fair, but Jem Ward was the champion, he was a bit of a **** though. Burke made his way up the ranks, Ward refused to fight him, retired, elected Simon Byrne, an Irish champion Ward had fixed fights with in the past. Burke beats Byrne and Ward refuses to acknowledge the new champion saying some bull about how he must retain the title for English honor. He did similar stuff to Burke about five times. Taking money and refusing to fight, making fights and refusing to award the victor, basically all Jem Ward could do to keep James Burke from the title he would.

Which is why CBZ themselves have a gap from J.Ward to Burke. On a quick look of their list-o champions you'll see Ward's reign ends in 32 while Burke's does not begin until 33. 32 is when Ward retired so he wasn't forced to fight Burke. 33 is when Byrne fought Burke. In 1837 Burke traveled to the US to face Irish champ Samuel O'Rourke, when he won most people acknowledged him as champion, finally.

However, it wouldn't be until Burke lost to a man while claiming the championship that Jem Ward would finally relinquish his title to another man. When Bendigo beats Burke Ward hands over his belt to Bendigo. In 1839.

So really, it is fair to say Burke is champion from 32-39, maybe even more.

Nick Ward really doesn't have much say or right to be called Champion until the 1840s. He's just Jem's brother and so, from time to time, while Jem was avoiding Burke, he was called champion....by his brother. Most people would have seen Jem or James as champion though, and for claimants Nick's real weak until he actually fights for the title....and even then kinda...meh.

The thing was Burke was DQ'd against Bendigo, fishy circumstances to lose his belt under. Then Bendigo retired until 42 having hurt himself doing flips after his DQ win over Burke.

Burke naturally claims the title while Bendigo heals. 1939

Before this, in 38, Bendigo fought and lost to Caunt on a DQ. No one recognized this as a title fight because in 38 Burke was overtaking Ward as 'The Man' or most recognized champion. People were wise to Ward's **** by now and happy to hear of Burke beating Irish champion O'Rourke, and prior happy to hear they were fighting. Bendigo vs Caunt is hardly a title fight.

So in 1840 the champ could be called Burke, who has only lost, suspectly, to a man who is sidelined. Nick Ward, who has done nothing but been Jem's brother, or Ben Caunt who defeated the man who beat the man, kinda, but before he was the man.

Burke fights Nick Ward it is 1840. Burke loses to DQ, this one is not even suspect, the Ward Gang threatened the ref to call it in favor of Ward or they'd kill him, there, in the ring, in front of everyone; Ward Gang gives 0 ****s at this point.

Nick Ward is finally, kinda, the champion.

By 1841 Ward's cementing his claim to the title by fighting and beating Caunt....by way of...yeah boy, having his gang threaten the ref, Caunt is DQ'd just like Burke was.

A few months later Ward would be forced to fight a real one. Caunt comes back with people of his own to check the Ward Gang. Beats Ward, gets the title free and clear of the Wards; both Nick and Jem are retired for good now.




I tried to be short and to the point, there's way more, I didn't even mention Tass or Slasher. Point is it's a confusing, as ****, era actually and pretty much any name from there is a reasonable choice for champion in 1838...except Nick Ward who is only 'champion' because the brother who bought the title and fixed fights to get it said he was....sometimes...sometimes Jem was just unretired himself. Sometimes some other fella like Byrne was champion....Jem Ward was a funny old ****.


Sambo's kinda a badass for whooping him all the same. Even if Nick's just the benefactor of a slippery brother in power, he is one of the top HWs of the era and a man often cited as champion despite having little to no reason to for most of his career.



It'd be difficult to relay that story in CBZ's format. I can appreciate their dates. For me, 32-43 Deaf Burke seems fair too. Most of the BS is just BS, DQs all over, nonsense like gangs and street toughs, out of ring politics and bull****. The only man who was there to fight, never di anyone dirty, and just wanted to prove he was the best was Jame Burke. He suffered all sorts of set back and BS WWE style set ups, and somehow was still able to force, with his fists alone, his title to come to him.

I don't like the Wards at all, Caunt, Bendigo, they're okay, but, dirty themselves and backed by dirty folks too, next to Wards they look clean as a whistle, next to Burke they look like dirty, plotting, cheating bastards who could not beat the true champion in a real boxing match....imo. 32 is when Ward ducked and retired, 43 is Burke's last match, between, he lost twice, both by DQ, both not exactly on the level. Burke was beaten because England did not want Burke, not because anyone could beat him.


I apologize if this doesn't make sense, it is confusing and at times I get lost with the who did what to who when.

[Bundana]

Quite a few boxers have defeated a FUTURE champion in their pro debut (like Magne Havnaa W PTS Johnny Nelson).

Not so common is a debutant beating a FORMER world champion - but it has happened (John Carlo W KO1 Leon Spinks).

In modern times no debutant has challenged successfully for a world title - but besides Skelly and Rademacher at least a handful has tried:

Domingus Siwalette
Arturo Mayan
Masaharu Kawakami
Joves De La Puz
Jako Arter

[katjack]

Hard to imagine boxing goes back to the 1800's.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Hard to imagine boxing goes back to the 1800's.

Not really. Sport literally meant training for war. Wrestling, Swimming, Running, jumping, swinging from trees, throwing punches - all that predates the existence of modern humans.

Our non-**** sapien hominid ancestors would probably beat us at most the olympic events.

Pretty much any where you travel on this planet humans are/were engaged in those activities for their survival.

It's particularly noticeable in the history of the British Isles because this region of the world was particularly violent. Hence global domination.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Simon Byrne was dead- game a legend for the ages.