Joe Louis vs Ali, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman?

[Dr. Z]

But it wasn't, and we have to question if flash KDs (over two rounds,) should be worth the same as losing four 10-9 rounds. Maybe round scoring is a better system for identifying the true winner, then again maybe it's not.

But it wasn't, so we have no clue if Louis would have paced himself differently in a 12 round fight.

But he didn't. Winning the first 20 minutes in any sports means nothing if you're not winning at the end.

That is true, but based on what we have ( the 20 + minutes of footage ) we can judge who was better. That is Walcott.

Uneventful rounds not shown can be judged through a good round by round report like this one that says Walcott closed Louis eye to a slit and had him confused. They were edited out for a reason. That is because Louis really lost.

Enjoy the fight report

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If you score the bout under ten point must rules and use their score cards only 2 of 31 people view Louis to winner!

Scoring by those covering the sport:

• Louis was down in rounds one and four.
• Louis was so disgusted by his performance that he attempted to leave the ring as soon as the fight ended, but he was restrained by his handlers.
• A ringside poll of 32 boxing writers had 21 scoring the bout for Walcott, ten scoring it for Louis and one calling it a draw.

Newspaper Votes

• Jim Schlemmer, sporting editor, Akron Beacon Journal (Akron, OH) - Walcott
• Jesse A. Linthicum, sporting editor, The Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-5-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press)
• Jean Rouchard. The Evening Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Joe Lee, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - 8-7 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• Tommy Holmes, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Ralph Frost, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Tom Ryan, sporting editor, Evening Courier (Camden, NJ) - 12-2-1 Walcott
• Wilfrid Smith, Chicago Daily Tribube (Chicago, IL) - 8-6-1 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• James E. Doyle, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Gordon Cobble****, sporting editor, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Jack Sharkey, International News Service - Walcott
• Frank Eck, Associated Press - 9-6 Walcott
• Elliott Cushing, ******** and Chronicle (Rochester, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jack Cuddy, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Ray Grody, Milwaukee Sentinel (Milwaukee, WI) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• George A. Barton, Minneapolis Morning Tribune (Minneapolis, MI) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Alan Harvey, Canadian Press - 6-5-4 Walcott
• Gene Ward, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Joe Trimble, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Al Buck, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-5-2 Louis.
• Leonard Cohen, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jimmy Cannon, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8 rounds for Walcott
• Anthony Marenghi, Newark Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ) - 7-6-2 Louis
• Joe Gootter, Paterson Evening News (Paterson, NJ) - 9-6 Louis
• Al Abrams, sporting editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Pittsburgh, PA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• W. J. McGoogan, St. Louis Post-Dispatch (St. Louis, MO) - 7-7-1
• John M. Flynn, sporting editor, The Berkshire Evening Eagle (Pittsfield, MA) - Walcott
• Clif Keane, The Boston Daily Globe (Boston, MA) - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Cunningham, The Boston Herald (Boston, MA) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• Sec Taylor, sporting editor, The Des Moines Register (Des Moines, IA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Burton Hawkins, The Evening Star (Washington, DC) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bill Lee, sporting editor, The Hartford Courant (Hartford, CT) - 7-4-4 Walcott
• Charlie Tiang, sporting editor, The Kingston Daily Freeman (Kingston, NY) - 9-4-2 Walcott
• Wendell Smith, sporting editor, The Pittsburgh Courier (Pittsburgh, PA) - 7-6-2 Louis
• James P. Dawson, The New York Times (New York, NY) - 8-7 Louis
• Joseph C. Nichols, New York Times - 8-7 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• John Webster, The Philadelphia Inquirer and Public Ledger (Philadelphia, PA) - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Lawton Carver, sporting editor, International News Service - 7-5-3 Louis
• Harold W. Heinz, The Springfield Union (Springfield, MA) - 8-5-2 Walcott
• John McNulty, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Tom Meany, sporting editor, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 9-6 Louis (score provided by Associated Press)
• Nat Fleischer, The Ring (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Louis

• Wilbur Wood, sporting editor, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Grantland Rice, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Lester Bromberg, New York World Telegram - 10-5 Walcott
• Joe Williams, New York World Telegram - Walcott
• Max Case, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Frank Graham, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Lewis Burton, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Bill Corum, New York Journal-American - 8-7 Louis
• Dan Parker, New York Daily Mirror - 9-6 Louis (according to AP) or 8-7 Louis (according to UP)
• Jim Jennings, New York Daily Mirror - 7-6-2 Louis
• Jesse Abramson, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Red Smith, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Ted Meier, Associated Press - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Hugh S. Fullerton, Associated Press - Walcott. "He scored the harder punches."
• Murray Rose, Associated Press - 9-5-1 Walcott
• Ted Smits, Associated Press - Walcott
• Gayle Talbot, Associated Press - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Leo H. Peterson, sporting editor, United Press - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Oscar Fraley, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bob Considine, International News Service - 8-7 Walcott
• Davis J. Walsh, International News Service - 8-3-4 Walcott
• Harry Grayson, Newspaper Enterprise Association - 8-4-3 Walcott
• John Lardner, North American Newspaper Alliance - Louis
• John Carmichael, sporting editor, Chicago Daily News - 11-4 Walcott (according to AP) or 8-4-3 Walcott (according to UP)
• Gene Kessler, Chicago Times - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Clair Kelley, Chicago Herald-American - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Jack Conway, Boston American - Louis
• Gerry Hern, Boston Post - 7-7-1 (according to AP and Al Buck of NY Post) or 7-6-2 Walcott (according to UP)
• Ed Delaney, Philadelphia Daily News - Walcott
• Matt Ring, Philadelphia Evening Bulletin - 8-7 Walcott
• Whitey Lewis, Cleveland News - 8-7 Walcott
• Franklin Lewis, Cleveland Press - Walcott
• Shirley Povich, Washington Post - Walcott
• Bob Addie, Washinton Times-Herald - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Hank O'Donnell, Waterbury ********** - 12-2-1 Walcott
• George Edmond, St. Paul Pioneer Press - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Demuth, Wheeling Intelligencer - 8-5-2 Walcott
• Robert Bre, La Presse (Paris, France) - 7-5-3 Louis
• Jean Kroutchtain, AFP (French News Agency) - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Bob Murphy, Detroit Evening Times, 8-5-2 Walcott

[mrbig1]

Louis would beat Liston's brains out. Too much speed and power. Foremen had better KO Louis early. if Louis takes him to the later rounds, then his toast. The Frazier fight is the other way around. Louis better get to him early because Frazier was a slow starter. The Frazier body attack would make things hard for Louis in the championship rounds. Ali is way too smart for Louis. Ali had more power than people think. Late round KO for Ali. The Louis resume makes him an all-time great. 25 defenses over 12 years. 68-3 with 54 KO's.

[QueensburyRules]

I am assuming it's something that happened elsewhere, e.g The Lounge. I don't remember him posting anything here that should result in a permanent ban.

- - Don't recall him coming up anywhere else save here, but I don't frequent the other areas much and only do drive bys on select NSB threads for my comedy fix.

Dimly recall some political thread he made up on the lounge that could be seen as nutty, but no nuttier than what already exists there.

[Willie Pep 229]

You are free to have your own opinion. Louis tried to get to Conn. It was only after he was badly staggered and Conn won the 12 the round impressively. Then Conn became ultra aggressive and went for the KO in the 13th which gave Louis his chance to land something significant on Conn. He would not catch up to Conn without Conn giving Louis the chance and the KO happened at 2:58 of the 13th round.

If the fight was 12 round Conn fights like he did and so does Louis and beat hims. In modern time you could score the 12 round 10-8 for Conn.

In regards to my opinion:

My opinion is that Louis was disrespected by the NYSAC who moved the fight from a four round exhibition, to a ten round defense with no judges (with Walcott only allowed to claim the title via KO.) Then just two weeks before that fight the NYSAC changed the fight again this time to a 15 round defense with judges. (New York did add another month of training time thus pushing the fight into early December.)

This 'game' the NYSAC started playing as early as June and proceeded to jerk Louis around for five months.

Louis was not treated with the respect a champion deserves and entered the ring that night mentally unprepared.

After the second change to a 15 round defense (with a month's extension) it looks like Louis bolted from camp and disappeared for three weeks before returning to camp.

(Plus Blackburn had passed away back in 1942 and Louis had no mentor to guide him. Both Roxborough and Uncle Mike Jacobs were both thieves who only used Louis.)

Louis never really had a chance to properly focus on the defense.

I am of the opinion that the judges decided among themselves that they would not give Walcott the title via a close decision because they were put off at the manner in which the NYSAC treated Louis.

Louis then did the right thing and gave Walcott an immediate rematch; better prepared, he stopped him.

For a second example of the NYSAC disrespecting Louis see the preversion called the Johnny Davis defense (1944).

In regards to Louis trying to leave the ring before the score cards were announced is to me just another example of how Louis never actually embraced the fight as a true defense. He had it forced upon him. He had been barnstorming making money with four round exhibitions all through 1947 until the NYSAC imposed itself.

Futhermore the NYSAC changed the fight to a 15 round defense with judges only after the NBA goated them into it by mysteriously moving Walcott to its number one spot (Most Worthy Challenger) without Walcott during anything in the interim. (From April to October.) In short Louis got caught in the middle of a political war bwteen two scantioning bodies.

The NBA didn't even notice Walcott until April of that year when it was announced he would be Louis opponent for the four round exhibition. It was only then did the NBA add Walcott to its contender list.

Then upon hearing that the NYSAC changed the fight to fight to a 10 round no decision fight the NBA acted again moving Walcott to the top spot.

All of these NBA moves (IMO) were designed to make the NYSAC look bad and then the NYSAC took the bait and screwed over Louis.

The above is my opinion.

What happened in the ring, both in the fight itself and the judges' decision can't be properly understood merely by watching the fight. Way too much had happened outside the ring leading up to the fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

You are free to have your own opinion. Louis tried to get to Conn. It was only after he was badly staggered and Conn won the 12 the round impressively. Then Conn became ultra aggressive and went for the KO in the 13th which gave Louis his chance to land something significant on Conn. He would not catch up to Conn without Conn giving Louis the chance and the KO happened at 2:58 of the 13th round.

If the fight was 12 round Conn fights like he did and so does Louis and beat hims. In modern time you could score the 12 round 10-8 for Conn.

Sorry I'm not done blitzing.

By claiming Louis tried to leave the ring before the score cards were announced makes Louis look like a sore loser. I doubt that!

Louis didn't bolt from the ring when Marciano, Charles, or Schmeling beat him. Louis was always a gracious man.

Considering how many times the fight had been redefined it is likely Louis attempted to leave the ring simply because he forgot there was a decision coming.

Louis had spent the previous four months preparing for a 10 round no decision fight.

[Dr. Z]

Sorry I'm not done blitzing.

By claiming Louis tried to leave the ring before the score cards were announced makes Louis look like a sore loser. I doubt that!

Louis didn't bolt from the ring when Marciano, Charles, or Schmeling beat him. Louis was always a gracious man.

Considering how many times the fight had been redefined it is likely Louis attempted to leave the ring simply because he forgot there was a decision coming.

Louis had spent the previous four months preparing for a 10 round no decision fight.

He did exactly that. It is in several new reads and reports. He felt he has lost the decision of Walcott in the first fight and tried to leave the ring before the decision was announced. Charles beat Louis for pillar to post, there was not question in the case nor was question that he was down for the count in the Marciano and Schmeling fights.


Scoring by those covering the sport:

• Louis was down in rounds one and four.
• Louis was so disgusted by his performance that he attempted to leave the ring as soon as the fight ended, but he was restrained by his handlers.
• A ringside poll of 32 boxing writers had 21 scoring the bout for Walcott, ten scoring it for Louis and one calling it a draw.

[Willie Pep 229]

He did exactly that. It is in several new reads and reports. He felt he has lost the decision of Walcott in the first fight and tried to leave the ring before the decision was announced. Charles beat Louis for pillar to post, there was not question in the case nor was question that he was down for the count in the Marciano and Schmeling fights.


Scoring by those covering the sport:

• Louis was down in rounds one and four.
• Louis was so disgusted by his performance that he attempted to leave the ring as soon as the fight ended, but he was restrained by his handlers.
• A ringside poll of 32 boxing writers had 21 scoring the bout for Walcott, ten scoring it for Louis and one calling it a draw.

Your quoters don't know what was going on in Louis's mind it just made for a good story.

"New reads" are often nothing more than repeated bad history.

[QueensburyRules]

Agree on Conn but not on Louis. He may have stepped up his game.

Historically we have to ask ourselves if fighters approached a 45 round title fight different than a 20 round go. I believe we would see a different approach/performance and have to take that into account when visually assessing their game.

I am not saying Louis would have, or that the results would have changed, only that it is a qualification to the point you were making.

- - Who was the nutter saying he'd favor JJ over Louis in a 45 round fight when JJ never went past 26 because he got KOed by a Cowboy turned boxer?

Louis had several 20 round matches that he won, though I don't think he went the full 20 because the other guy out on the canvas.

[shawnkemp804]

The 190 pound Joe Louis looked good fighting 180 pound guys or big slow lumbering oafs. Ali picks Joe Louis apart and stops him whenever he choose too. Frazier would stop Louis before the 3rd round. Sonny Liston and George Foreman destroys Joe Louis in less than 1 round.

[Willie Pep 229]

The 190 pound Joe Louis looked good fighting 180 pound guys or big slow lumbering oafs. Ali picks Joe Louis apart and stops him whenever he choose too. Frazier would stop Louis before the 3rd round. Sonny Liston and George Foreman destroys Joe Louis in less than 1 round.

Was Babe Ruth overrated, or did he just play in a weak era?