Re-examining Robinson?

[The Old LefHook]

Scholars even reinterpret Greek myths from time to time. Any legend or myth must bear the scrutiny and reinterpretation of the present, so I do not feel bad bringing up the subject which can get some foaming mad. Any time an unquestioned belief is questioned, some may become upset. Who cares?

Was Robinson actually the GOAT? And why!

If you can't do better than rolling by the window on your skateboard and tossing in an eight word comment about his record, etc., then shut the fork up, and let anyone speak who knows something about the subject and how to analyze the realities.

Any takers?

[The Old LefHook]

Where is Ray Corso? I know he understands the subject. There may be others. I have not been on here long enough to identify them.

[The Old LefHook]

Examining Robinson's early record, some interesting facts pop out. Robinson's step up to advanced competition was no less a gradual slope than it is with today's wet-nursed hopefuls, but everything occurred on a different scale with respect to time. He became a pro in 1940. In 1941 he had twenty fights, in his three active months of 1940, six bouts.

His first opponent's record was 3-17-4, so management was not exactly taking chances, other than the inveterate loser had some experience, and Robinson was a known prodigy entering the pros. Fair enough, though. The next guy was Silent Stafford at 0-4-0, and I have no idea why Robinson flew all the way to Georgia to fight him, but he was again silenced early. Next came 7-19-4 (who knocked him down), 10-10-2, the vastly experienced 71-37-5 and 34-10-6, for the final fight of 1940.

After beginning 1941 with a nondescript fighter with no record listed, he fought a man 33-54-9. But then came 54-17-6, then it was on to 14-18-5, for his tenth fight. The next ten fights were with opponents with much experience and winning records, but lots of losses also. For his twenty-first fight he met and defeated a real gem in 60-15-5 Sammy Angott, whose last six fights had been five wins and a draw.

By the seventh month of 1941, then, the point is made, he has definitely stepped up, though there is nothing wrong with the two previous opponents, either, 45-8-7 Pete Lello and 30-3-1 Mike Evans, both KO victims.

Though the statistics can be used to point out that Robinson's step up in quality was nearly as gradual as today's measure, albeit at a much faster pace with respect to time, they also highlight just how much experience most of the bums he fought early had. There is a difference between fighting a guy with fifty fights and a guy with five or ten or fifteen fights. Robinson never even bothered with the latter. Until he had accumulated a lot of fights himself, he almost always fought someone with more experience. What better way to learn the tricks than to fight men with great experience from the outset, which is what Robinson did?

For the rest of 1941 and 1942, he never looked back. Shapiro and Zivic and Servo and LaMotta were among the victims.

Robinson ascended to the top of the heap by the end of 1942, but could not land a title fight for another four and a half years, due to crooked influences in boxing. There was a three fight sequence where he fought LaMotta twice within three weeks with another opponent sandwiched in between. For a young fighter, the competition and experience just does not get any better.

First round seems to go to Robinson.

[SlySlickSmooth]

The year Robinson won his Welterweight title, shouldn't of been that year. Freddie Cochrane had the belt hostage for a few years not defending but fighting 10 rounders, they knew Robinson would win. Instead Cochrane faced Marty Servo, a man Robinson had already beat. Servo won and eventually lost the title to Robinson.

Robinson was a feared man. A dangerous puncher who would box you until he wanted to finish you. Think you could hurt him? Think again because if you get rough he gets rough right back.. a very dangerous man.

[sonnyboyx2]

Examining Robinson's early record, some interesting facts pop out. Robinson's step up to advanced competition was no less a gradual slope than it is with today's wet-nursed hopefuls, but everything occurred on a different scale with respect to time. He became a pro in 1940. In 1941 he had twenty fights, in his three active months of 1940, six bouts.

His first opponent's record was 3-17-4, so management was not exactly taking chances, other than the inveterate loser had some experience, and Robinson was a known prodigy entering the pros. Fair enough, though. The next guy was Silent Stafford at 0-4-0, and I have no idea why Robinson flew all the way to Georgia to fight him, but he was again silenced early. Next came 7-19-4 (who knocked him down), 10-10-2, the vastly experienced 71-37-5 and 34-10-6, for the final fight of 1940.

After beginning 1941 with a nondescript fighter with no record listed, he fought a man 33-54-9. But then came 54-17-6, then it was on to 14-18-5, for his tenth fight. The next ten fights were with opponents with much experience and winning records, but lots of losses also. For his twenty-first fight he met and defeated a real gem in 60-15-5 Sammy Angott, whose last six fights had been five wins and a draw.

By the seventh month of 1941, then, the point is made, he has definitely stepped up, though there is nothing wrong with the two previous opponents, either, 45-8-7 Pete Lello and 30-3-1 Mike Evans, both KO victims.

Though the statistics can be used to point out that Robinson's step up in quality was nearly as gradual as today's measure, albeit at a much faster pace with respect to time, they also highlight just how much experience most of the bums he fought early had. There is a difference between fighting a guy with fifty fights and a guy with five or ten or fifteen fights. Robinson never even bothered with the latter. Until he had accumulated a lot of fights himself, he almost always fought someone with more experience. What better way to learn the tricks than to fight men with great experience from the outset, which is what Robinson did?

For the rest of 1941 and 1942, he never looked back. Shapiro and Zivic and Servo and LaMotta were among the victims.

Robinson ascended to the top of the heap by the end of 1942, but could not land a title fight for another four and a half years, due to crooked influences in boxing. There was a three fight sequence where he fought LaMotta twice within three weeks with another opponent sandwiched in between. For a young fighter, the competition and experience just does not get any better.

First round seems to go to Robinson.

what folk don't understand about Boxrec is that obscure boxers who champions like Robinson fought early in their careers, their records are not listed. So Boxrec compiles their record on the fights THEY can find they had. They don't have actual insight and knowledge to know the record of every guy who ever fought professional boxing for a living. Many many pro fighters are missing over half their bouts on their Boxrec records.

[The Old LefHook]

Very interesting, Joe, about that second fight.

I accept that the war was a factor, but I am not so sure of main factor. It took until one year and nine months after the conclusion of the war for him to get a title shot, which is probably not attributable to the war, because Ray had whipped everyone but the president's wife years before. He was out and boxing actively again well before the conclusion of the war. How many fighters had to acheive 73-1-1 before getting a title shot, even when fighters fought more often? I ask because I have not researched the answer, though I suspect it would be few, and none in our own era. Isolated exceptions are of not much use, even if they occurred, the answer would need to be in percentage form and from a pretty large sample base. It is a big effort I have not had time for, and may never.

By 1943 when he entered the army, Robinson had reached his absolute prime, with his peak years likely to immediately follow. He was already 42 fights deep, quite respectable for a title shot. All through those war years, even while he was serving, Ray fought regularly at the same U.S. venues he always had, with never a gap of more than three months, and usually less. Izzy Jannazzo was no pushover, either.

By the time he got his title shot he was still in his prime, maybe nearing the end of absolute peak years, for any boxer's body takes a battering through 77 pro fights, even Robinson's. Many people overlook how great a defender he was. He rolled out of harm's way, turning powerful blows into glancing blows over and over. But his style was not one that shied away from committment to his own punch. He committed with KO intentions to almost every punch he threw, and when you do that, you have to get hit sometimes. He stood there exchanging punches sometimes, trusting his beard and his firepower.

Of course he got hit much more often than FM, because that comes with the territory of an attacker. Robby would not have been tarred and feathered and lynched if he had chosen to fight that way, putting defense absolutely first, because other fighters of the era did it, but he would have lost a significant portion of the historical legacy he now has, even if he had instituted the style change after 1951, even though he had already started downhill on that gradual part of the slope near the inflection point. Though only dim scraps of footage exist of him as a featherweight and a welterweight, one sees that he was always an attacker, with even less inclination to avoid engagement.

There may be a further good reason for his incredible aggression, which makes one think of Hearns. Robinson found cheating at boxing repulsive, and he was not the first or the last to be proud of his record. Prior contacts with gangsters, and definite knowledge of their sway, made him hesitant to let any fight go to a decision, for if it wasn't your title they were snatching away, they could snatch your record with a crooked decision, which is something like snatching your title chances. Whatever the reasons, the style worked for his legacy and for fans of all eras, because almost all of him captured on film is during that second decade of his career.

[The Old LefHook]

Robinson's original Georgian opponent for his second pro fight, that he kayoed in the golden gloves, would have been Jimmy Butler, whose hometown is listed as Atlanta.

[pacmanis1]

Hats off to everyone contributing. Can't remember the last thread on this site that was this insightful. Some green K about to go around.

As for me I don't have the historical knowledge that some other posters do to claim his greatness. I will say though that when you watch old footage his speed, footwork, power and just over fluidity just seem so incredible. He just seems like the evolution of a fighter. Watching him fight is almost like watch art being created. It beauty meshed with brutality.

[phallus]

Hats off to everyone contributing. Can't remember the last thread on this site that was this insightful. Some green K about to go around.

As for me I don't have the historical knowledge that some other posters do to claim his greatness. I will say though that when you watch old footage his speed, footwork, power and just over fluidity just seem so incredible. He just seems like the evolution of a fighter. Watching him fight is almost like watch art being created. It beauty meshed with brutality.

the best thing about Robinson is how well he handled fighters from all the different styles with little difficulty, most guys will struggle with one style, counterpunchers, swarmers, pure boxers, that's bad for them. Robinson handled all of them, no matter what style they fought in. He didn't have a weakness in one area like most other fighters do

[Suckmedry]

the best thing about Robinson is how well he handled fighters from all the different styles with little difficulty, most guys will struggle with one style, counterpunchers, swarmers, pure boxers, that's bad for them. Robinson handled all of them, no matter what style they fought in. He didn't have a weakness in one area like most other fighters do

its because he had the speed and reach to outbox nearly anyone, if that wasn't suited he could **** like crazy and had an iron chin, hard to go to war with a guy with his speed too.