Tua vs. The Greats

[nomadman]

I know I'll probably get flack but I do see Tua being able to beat Lennox Lewis by KO, as his punchers chance in that fight is greater than his punchers chance against the others.

Seems you're buying into the now largely discredited "Lennox had a glass jaw" nonsense. There are plenty of guys on that list with worse chins than him, Louis and Patterson for starters, and Wlad certainly doesn't possess the resilience of Lennox either. Tua's a massive puncher, but you only have to look at their fight to see that the few bombs Tua did land had very little effect on Lennox, and they were solid, head-snapping shots (albeit from a lunging Tua). Lennox was stopped a grand total of two times in a 44 fight career, and both times they were from perfectly placed shots right on the button, yet you'd be hard pressed to find a fighter whose reputation has suffered more from those defeats. It's ludicrous. When will people let it go?

[nomadman]

They have different body's, but I think a lot of the size difference which I don't think matters that much anyway comes from Marciano doing a lot of endurance training and Tua training with weights. You think Tua is stronger,hits harder, and is more resiliant all because he is bigger. Sounds to me like you think Tua is better because he is bigger. Marciano was big, not to many guys are over 200 pounds if they run 10 to 15 miles every day and don't lift weights.

No I don't come to that conclusion based solely on the fact that Tua is bigger, I come to it by watching his fights and comparing them to others. Does his greater muscularity and denser bone structure play a factor? Yes it does, for the same reason I'd naturally consider any larger fighter fighting similarly sized opponents to be more resilient than one at a lighter weight class but equivalent height. The fights are the ultimate decider though, and whilst I don't think Tua is any great shakes as a fighter, his punching power is undeniable, and the fact that he didn't come close to getting stopped in his prime, despite facing some huge punchers and taking their best, puts his resilience beyond all doubt also.

As for "better" that's a subjective term. Tua doesn't hold the Rock's jockstrap as far as resume or public esteem is concerned, nor does he compare favourably to any of the other fighters on that list. But the fact that he's a bigger man than Marciano, as well as being stronger and more resilient (IMHO), coupled with his fighting style, give me good hope that he'd win a head to head matchup, especially given that a large part of Marciano's success relied on his ability to take punishment and dish it out. That's Tua's speciality also, and if any style matchup favour the bigger stronger man it's this one.

[Quarry]

Seems you're buying into the now largely discredited "Lennox had a glass jaw" nonsense. There are plenty of guys on that list with worse chins than him, Louis and Patterson for starters, and Wlad certainly doesn't possess the resilience of Lennox either. Tua's a massive puncher, but you only have to look at their fight to see that the few bombs Tua did land had very little effect on Lennox, and they were solid, head-snapping shots (albeit from a lunging Tua). Lennox was stopped a grand total of two times in a 44 fight career, and both times they were from perfectly placed shots right on the button, yet you'd be hard pressed to find a fighter whose reputation has suffered more from those defeats. It's ludicrous. When will people let it go?

what do you mean"when will people let it go" do people let frazier's loss to foreman go or tyson's loss to douglas go or patterson's loss to liston go? lennox 2 defeats was far worse than any of those guy's losses, tua was not very good and his punching power is overated, lennox was hurt in quite a few of his fights not just his 2 ko defeats so if tua failed to ko lennox then he has very little chance of koing joe louis or joe frazier like some have suggested would happen

[Holtol]

No I don't come to that conclusion based solely on the fact that Tua is bigger, I come to it by watching his fights and comparing them to others. Does his greater muscularity and denser bone structure play a factor? Yes it does, for the same reason I'd naturally consider any larger fighter fighting similarly sized opponents to be more resilient than one at a lighter weight class but equivalent height. The fights are the ultimate decider though, and whilst I don't think Tua is any great shakes as a fighter, his punching power is undeniable, and the fact that he didn't come close to getting stopped in his prime, despite facing some huge punchers and taking their best, puts his resilience beyond all doubt also.

As for "better" that's a subjective term. Tua doesn't hold the Rock's jockstrap as far as resume or public esteem is concerned, nor does he compare favourably to any of the other fighters on that list. But the fact that he's a bigger man than Marciano, as well as being stronger and more resilient (IMHO), coupled with his fighting style, give me good hope that he'd win a head to head matchup, especially given that a large part of Marciano's success relied on his ability to take punishment and dish it out. That's Tua's speciality also, and if any style matchup favour the bigger stronger man it's this one.

Tua had good power I know that, and he can take a punch. I have seen many of his fights, since this thread started I have watched some more footage on him. But as you know there is more to winning a fight then having good power, chin and speed. Marciano was a more talented fighter, talent is the most important thing there is. You might not be paying enough attention to the way Marciano mixes his opponents up.

Marciano hit hard enough to seriously damage any boxer and he could avoid a lot of punishment and when hit he could take it.

[New England]

what do you mean"when will people let it go" do people let frazier's loss to foreman go or tyson's loss to douglas go or patterson's loss to liston go? lennox 2 defeats was far worse than any of those guy's losses, tua was not very good and his punching power is overated, lennox was hurt in quite a few of his fights not just his 2 ko defeats so if tua failed to ko lennox then he has very little chance of koing joe louis or joe frazier like some have suggested would happen

certainly i dont see tua Kayoing any of the legit top ten HW greats you're mentioning


but i'm going to support lennox lewis' chin
it goes underrated because of his kayo defeats. (a heavyweight who gets hit hard and clean on the button by a soldi punching heavyweight is going down and not getting up. that's why they get paid the big bucks and why the people go the craziest when they fight [or at least they used to])

he defeated a murderers row of horrific punchers:
tyson
klitschko in his prime when he was a puncher
grant
holyfield
golota
mercer
morrison
ruddock
briggs
tua


nuff said. guy had at least a good chin.
this is heavyweight boxing we're talking about.
if you dont know enough about it
well then you dont know enough about it.

[nomadman]

Tua had good power I know that, and he can take a punch. I have seen many of his fights, since this thread started I have watched some more footage on him. But as you know there is more to winning a fight then having good power, chin and speed. Marciano was a more talented fighter, talent is the most important thing there is. You might not be paying enough attention to the way Marciano mixes his opponents up.

Marciano has better skills than I've acknowledged in the previous posts on this topic, and his accuracy and timing made up to some degree for his lacklustre speed, but it still remains that he was at heart a slugger who thrived on being able to dish out more than he would take. I can't recall a single fight of his where he actually boxed a bigger, stronger, tougher, faster-handed man from the outside the entire fight. He'd need to do that with Tua otherwise he's getting seriously hurt, IMO. Like I said before, Tua was one dimensional, but that one dimension was muderous, and I simply can't see Marciano doing well, even taking into account his superior talent.

Marciano hit hard enough to seriously damage any boxer and he could avoid a lot of punishment and when hit he could take it.

Aye, but when did he ever fight a fighter as resilient and hard hitting as Tua?

[CarlosG815]

Seems you're buying into the now largely discredited "Lennox had a glass jaw" nonsense. There are plenty of guys on that list with worse chins than him, Louis and Patterson for starters, and Wlad certainly doesn't possess the resilience of Lennox either. Tua's a massive puncher, but you only have to look at their fight to see that the few bombs Tua did land had very little effect on Lennox, and they were solid, head-snapping shots (albeit from a lunging Tua). Lennox was stopped a grand total of two times in a 44 fight career, and both times they were from perfectly placed shots right on the button, yet you'd be hard pressed to find a fighter whose reputation has suffered more from those defeats. It's ludicrous. When will people let it go?

"Lennox got sparked by two lesser punches 4 minutes into a fight, don't buy the hype that he is glass jawed."

Is that what you're saying? Lewis had a feather chin. You can make try and argue against him having two left feet, terrible footwork, a crap jab, and just being overall not very good, but you can't argue that the guy had no chin. Anytime he fought a half live opponent who came to fight and landed a shot on him, he went down like a stripper with a $50 in her G string.

44 fights, 2 live opponents, 2 KO's. It will never get let go because Lennox never stepped up and fought live opponents. He entire resume is a smoke and mirrors trick.

David Tua in his prime may not find it too difficult to get inside. He wasn't very good at it, but then again Lewis' jab was always very poor, thrown with poor precision and a lack of crispness. It wasn't used as an effective punch but a distraction. If Tua landed on Lennox it would be all over.

[Joeyzagz]

what do you mean"when will people let it go" do people let frazier's loss to foreman go or tyson's loss to douglas go or patterson's loss to liston go? lennox 2 defeats was far worse than any of those guy's losses

Thats because

-Tyson never avenged Douglas
-Frazier never avenged Foreman
-Patterson never avenged Liston

You dont have to "let it go" but respect to Lennox for his will to get the guys who beat him. Much better than i can say for the disgraceful Bowe.

[CarlosG815]

Thats because

-Tyson never avenged Douglas
-Frazier never avenged Foreman
-Patterson never avenged Liston

You dont have to "let it go" but respect to Lennox for his will to get the guys who beat him. Much better than i can say for the disgraceful Bowe.

lol, aren't you who believes Jerry Quarry is Oscar Bonavena?

Hopkins avenged Roy Jones Jr and guess what? Nobody gives a **** because avenging losses against bums doesn't mean a damn thing.

[nomadman]

what do you mean"when will people let it go" do people let frazier's loss to foreman go or tyson's loss to douglas go or patterson's loss to liston go? lennox 2 defeats was far worse than any of those guy's losses

I mean exactly what I mean. When will people let it go? Or are boxing fans so unthinking and stuck in their ways that they'll never alter their initial opinions about a person for good or ill, even after years, nay decades have passed? Lennox's "glass chin" issues seem to stem entirely from those two defeats (defeats which he avenged BTW) and from the few times he got wobbled against big punchers like Bruno, Briggs, Vitali and Mercer. If that constitutes a glass chin then God help us all.

Do people let Frazier's, Patterson's and Tyson's KO losses go? Yeah, by and large they do. And whilst those defeats may be brought up from time to time, they haven't had one iota of the negative impact that Lennox's defeats have had, and none of those fighters avenged those defeats. In Frazier's and Patterson's cases they had two tries and were systematically destroyed in much the same way both times. Sure, you'll hear some idiots talk about "Frazier's glass jaw" on occasion, but they're very much in the minority, and generally his overriding traits of toughness and heart remain unhurt. Likewise Tyson, though he was stopped significantly more times than Lennox ever was.

Lennox's glass jaw is a myth and one which unthinking and narrow minded boxing fans continue to cling to and perpetuate.

tua was not very good and his punching power is overated, lennox was hurt in quite a few of his fights not just his 2 ko defeats so if tua failed to ko lennox then he has very little chance of koing joe louis or joe frazier like some have suggested would happen

No offence, but you don't seem to have a particularly strong grasp of logic. Lennox beat Tua by keeping him on the outside the entire fight and using his height and superior reach to frustrate Tua and make him miss. Is that even remotely how either Louis or Frazier fight? No it isn't. So the fact that Tua was unable to KO Lennox in no way impacts his chances in either fight. Both guys routinely fought on the inside, and in Louis's case he was dropped and wobbled by some pretty iffy opposition. Tua's punching power might be a little overrated (personally I think it's underrated) but if you're getting hurt by career middleweights and obese bartenders then is it such a leap of logic to think that perhaps a prime Tua might conceivably be able to stop him?