Another one about Colorline

[Willie Pep 229]

Here's a question concerning Johnson and his negative impact on white-black relations. Was he a pioneer that the issue just took time to catch up with, or a malevolent person who cared nothing for these issues?

I now believe the latter.

I now believe he was important to the gradual growth of 'Black Power' but hindered integration.

But in his own time Jack Johnson represented one-half of the division African-American society was struggling with.

The black power of W.E.B duBois vs. the accommodation of Booker T. Washington's philosophy.

This might be a touch long but worth the read. It is from Langston Hughes, he addresses the Jack Johnson side of the argument.

(Please note the 'Philadelphia Club Woman' is a black woman.)

Langston Hughes, "The Negro Artist and the Racial Mountain," The Nation. 1926

"Jazz to me is one of the inherent expressions of Negro life in America: the eternal tom-tom beating in the Negro soul - the tom-tom of revolt against weariness in a white world, a world of subway trains, and work, work, work; the tom-tom of joy and laughter, and pain swallowed in a smile.

Yet the Philadelphia club woman . . . turns her nose up at jazz and all its manifestations - likewise almost everything else distinctly racial. . . . She wants the artist to flatter her, to make the white world believe that all Negroes are as smug and as near white in soul as she wants to be. But, to my mind, it is the duty of the younger Negro artist . . . to change through the force of his art that old whispering "I want to be white," hidden in the aspirations of his people, to "Why should I want to be white? I am Negro - and beautiful."

Certainly Langston Hughes was a Jack Johnson fan. Yet many blacks of the day were not.

The black community today, still struggles with this division.

[JAB5239]

I now believe the latter.

I now believe he was important to the gradual growth of 'Black Power' but hindered integration.

But in his own time Jack Johnson represented one-half of the division African-American society was struggling with.

The black power of W.E.B duBois vs. the accommodation of Booker T. Washington's philosophy.

This might be a touch long but worth the read. It is from Langston Hughes, he addresses the Jack Johnson side of the argument.

(Please note the 'Philadelphia Club Woman' is a black woman.)

Langston Hughes, "The Negro Artist and the Racial Mountain," The Nation. 1926

"Jazz to me is one of the inherent expressions of Negro life in America: the eternal tom-tom beating in the Negro soul - the tom-tom of revolt against weariness in a white world, a world of subway trains, and work, work, work; the tom-tom of joy and laughter, and pain swallowed in a smile.

Yet the Philadelphia club woman . . . turns her nose up at jazz and all its manifestations - likewise almost everything else distinctly racial. . . . She wants the artist to flatter her, to make the white world believe that all Negroes are as smug and as near white in soul as she wants to be. But, to my mind, it is the duty of the younger Negro artist . . . to change through the force of his art that old whispering "I want to be white," hidden in the aspirations of his people, to "Why should I want to be white? I am Negro - and beautiful."

Certainly Langston Hughes was a Jack Johnson fan. Yet many blacks of the day were not.

The black community today, still struggles with this division.

This is very deep and not something I am comfortable quickly answering in how it pertains to Johnson. But eye opening none the less. Thanks for posting.

[Anomalocaris]

I doubt he frightened JFK. Sonny was just going to be a problem for the Civil Rights movement, which little brother RFK was slowly using to build his future career on.

I don't think JFK was easy to scare. What he actually was, was a cut throat politician who would manipulate any person or situation to his (or his family's) advantage.

Sonny Liston and Jack Johnson were NOT good for white-black relations. A reality of the time. A truth no one here wants to address.

Of course they were both very good for empowering the black community. That's a good thing but in a different way. A different way that was not conducive to the Brothers Kennedy's plan.

Yes perhaps I should have said concerned.

I know (despite his public cuddly teddy bear public image) he was an utterly ruthless person and poltician.

Many at the top of big business, politics and organised religion are functional psychopaths.

That's how they got there.

Some historian once said the best move for his legacy and reputation was to be assasinated.

[Bronson66]

I now believe the latter.

I now believe he was important to the gradual growth of 'Black Power' but hindered integration.

But in his own time Jack Johnson represented one-half of the division African-American society was struggling with.

The black power of W.E.B duBois vs. the accommodation of Booker T. Washington's philosophy.

This might be a touch long but worth the read. It is from Langston Hughes, he addresses the Jack Johnson side of the argument.

(Please note the 'Philadelphia Club Woman' is a black woman.)

Langston Hughes, "The Negro Artist and the Racial Mountain," The Nation. 1926

"Jazz to me is one of the inherent expressions of Negro life in America: the eternal tom-tom beating in the Negro soul - the tom-tom of revolt against weariness in a white world, a world of subway trains, and work, work, work; the tom-tom of joy and laughter, and pain swallowed in a smile.

Yet the Philadelphia club woman . . . turns her nose up at jazz and all its manifestations - likewise almost everything else distinctly racial. . . . She wants the artist to flatter her, to make the white world believe that all Negroes are as smug and as near white in soul as she wants to be. But, to my mind, it is the duty of the younger Negro artist . . . to change through the force of his art that old whispering "I want to be white," hidden in the aspirations of his people, to "Why should I want to be white? I am Negro - and beautiful."

Certainly Langston Hughes was a Jack Johnson fan. Yet many blacks of the day were not.

The black community today, still struggles with this division.

Thankfully blacks don't straighten their hair or prize light coloured black women above darker skinned ones nowadays.
Black is beautiful,so is White,Yellow, and Red.
As a Jazz fan I'd hate to contemplate what Jazz would be without the contribution of black artists.
King Oliver
Fletcher Henderson
Louis Armstrong
Dizzy Gillespie
John Coltrane
Art Tatum
Fats Waller
Duke Ellington
Count Basie
Errol Garner
Ella Fitzgerald
Sarah Vaughn
Carmen McCrae
Dinah Washington
Della Reese
Lena Horne
And few hundred more .
A Jazz that is purely White would be akin to a violin without a bow,and Leontyne Price might just be the greatest Soprano Opera has yet seen.

[Marchegiano]

The most American thing a man can do is identify unfair law and by opposition end it.

I don't understand the importance of motivation. Likewise, what is a glass ceiling and why is it important they be broken? Who breaks them gently?

[Bronson66]

The most American thing a man can do is identify unfair law and by opposition end it.

I don't understand the importance of motivation. Likewise, what is a glass ceiling and why is it important they be broken? Who breaks them gently?

Do you believe there are any glass ceilings left to be broken in the US?

[Marchegiano]

IMO, hierachy:

1. Undisputed
2. Unified
3. Single
4. Post Colorline Lineal
5. Colorline Lineal and Colored (equal)
6. Earned Rating (bodies)
7. Learned Rating (ring/tbrb/youse/gazette)
8. Resume
9. Stats ( Who Fitzs sent to retirement for example, stuff we track but don't include in records)
10. Feats (Tokyo Douglas, Rocky pulling the Suze on Joe, etc, performances or sequences we speak to endlessly)

Because status should matter. Being the champion should mean something. I try to search for inarguable.

It's hard to argue against any undisputed champions.

You can a unified but it's not easy.

A single strapper is kind of hard to support and will find plenty to argue against.

Post colorline champions' global supremacy is a lot harder to argue against than pre colorline champions' prowess. X never fought Y forever and ever and ever on repeat for the end of time.

Learned ratings might be popular but it's actually pretty difficult to argue for promo ratings while claiming what's wrong with body, earned, ratings is promoters. I've taken it on heaps and changed minds ... the hardest thing to do as a boxing fan, change minds, so it's really about positioning not platitudes.

Resume is just a reflection of personal bias and nothing more, it's where we love to argue most because it is the most arguable feature of supporting a case or stance. What's impressive to me isn't you and so rather than agreeing to disagree or acknowledging any personal bias we just argue and claim criteria rather than opinion. Let that's more than semantics.

Stats are so low no one has enough neck to neck a complete argument out of stats alone. Here and there you may see 50-0 thrown about like it's an argument but usually it's just a troll. It is super hard to have any earnest debate if all you rely on is stats. Especially non-record stats. What do you guys think of 925? Well, I've not stfu about it for a few months so it's pretty safe to say you don't at all.


And that's why I have Tunney kinda low and Burns kinda high usually, compared to the rest of youse.

[Marchegiano]

Do you believe there are any glass ceilings left to be broken in the US?

Maybe.


Honestly man, I never feel more Latino or the son of a native son than having to deal with the US government in someway.

It'd be hard to relate because all you ever hear about or from are political people. Politically minded people. So, depending on the tides of policies, sometimes it does seem like they're all still right there. Sometimes it seems like one sides riles people up on racial, gender, religious, etc. lines just so the other side can calm them down.

Sometimes I'm the bad guy just for existing but also sometimes I am modern jesus just for existing.

School, court, taxes, I'm just as brown skinned as any other latino. I swear to ****, because they can, government employees will act like you're speaking spanish to them, delay things, and get a translator even though you don't actually speak spanish. Just so they don't have to do their job on that day. Just use that name and paint a narrative to suppress me.

Bro, if a white skinned latino gets mistreated for being latino then the brown skinned broken english ****ers are well ****ed.

Likewise it is impossible for me to name my children in the native tongue, Arawak, because America does not even recognize my people's language. Unlike Spanish and English, it's not imported. I get the learn english to be american mentality but also maybe let the native languages survive? Just a bit?


It's actually why I bring it up so often. It's on my mind often because I've been in court the past few years once every couple months and I get treated like, well, to be blunt, a black man.

All the other white dudes gonna have their hearing. Black dudes, latinos, natives, we all get chucked in a room and our hearings delayed. The racial lines being purely coincidence of course. My last delay was by hurricane. Just by chance the people who got seen where all whites named things like Smith and Johnson.



So, I dunno really. Maybe. I get it when black dudes are bitching about a system for whites by whites. systemic racism and ****. Maybe. Maybe ladies and trans feel the same way too.








BUT, I know JJ running them coppers makes me smile hard! One for the good guys I say. We got us a win, they rare, and they got their back in the end, but, JJ was a win.

[Willie Pep 229]

Thankfully blacks don't straighten their hair or prize light coloured black women above darker skinned ones nowadays.
Black is beautiful,so is White,Yellow, and Red.
As a Jazz fan I'd hate to contemplate what Jazz would be without the contribution of black artists.
King Oliver
Fletcher Henderson
Louis Armstrong
Dizzy Gillespie
John Coltrane
Art Tatum
Fats Waller
Duke Ellington
Count Basie
Errol Garner
Ella Fitzgerald
Sarah Vaughn
Carmen McCrae
Dinah Washington
Della Reese
Lena Horne
And few hundred more .
A Jazz that is purely White would be akin to a violin without a bow,and Leontyne Price might just be the greatest Soprano Opera has yet seen.

I agree 99% - except about white jazz - for better or worse white jazz was known as swing music.

It wasn't bad.

But you are correct, without (Black) Jazz there would have been no 'Tin Pan Ally,' -- Berlin, Brothers Geshwin, Kern, Porter, Arlen.

Now, on the other hand 'white rap' needs to be stopped immediately, by law if necessary.

[Bronson66]

I agree 99% - except about white jazz - for better or worse white jazz was known as swing music.

It wasn't bad.

But you are correct, without (Black) Jazz there would have been no 'Tin Pan Ally,' -- Berlin, Brothers Geshwin, Kern, Porter, Arlen.

Now, on the other hand 'white rap' needs to be stopped immediately, by law if necessary.

I hate rap of any description. Swing was dance music with great interpreters such as Artie Shaw and Benny Goodman,who both then embraced Jazz.