The Colour Line In Boxing And It's History

[max baer]

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I would love to hear members here discuss the colour line in boxing and why it came about, what were the reasons for it being invented and why was america so willing to deny black boxers their fair shot at boxing titles. Can others explain? Were white men scared of black men or was it purely racism. I have read that white men back then considered black men as a different human (inferior) but growing up I always thought it was based on fear such as Jack Johnson beating Tommy Burns when Burns ran around the world trying to keep away from Johnson and how the camera men at the fight were told to turn off their cameras so the world wouldn't see Johnson knocking out Burns.
Can others explore the debate about this ancient boxing law that shames us now in our enlightened times. Some have said that johnson could beat 4 white men in one day and that there were other black boxers who were not allowed to fight despite being much better then the champion who was white.
Was the colour line based purely on fear as I believe or was there other reasons. This is one for the boxing knowledgeable and everyone who reads about boxing history.
should we condemn white men who went along with this rule or should we accept that they could only do what they were told in those days. could they have broken this rule to fight johnson and why didn't boxers like sullivan, jefferies and corbet fight black boxers was it the pressure of the times or were they just chicken/
i've even heard that the american civil war had a part to play in the south they saw black fighters as not worthy of success so they wanted to keep them enslaved.

[Willie Pep 229]

You can find evidence of every argument as to why.

You have to look at each fighter separately to see.

You will find that it was most pervasive with the HW title.

Promoters, commissions, venue owners, managers, populace temperament, and fighters all have to be examined for each circumstance.

It's funny but most never stop to ask, if the color line was so pervasive how did Jack Johnson become HW Champion of the World?

So it certainly can't be a simple answer.

Example:

The Carnival of Champions, Olympic Club, New Orleans, 1892 (Sullivan-Corbett) on day two (09/06) George Dixon (colored) stopped, in eight rounds, the featherweight amateur champion Jack Skelly (white), to be generally recognized as the Featherweight Champion of the World.

The newspapers that supported (racially) mixed fights claim that the all white crowd grabbed Dixon, hoisted him on their shoulders, and paraded him around the ring.

The white Supremacist papers claim the mixed bout's outcome caused rioting in the streets of New Orleans.

Which is true? Maybe both happened, maybe neither.



What you will find, when you go looking, is proof of any argument you want to champion.

If you should stumble across a truth, share it with me. Luck!

[max baer]

You can find evidence of every argument as to why.

You have to look at each fighter separately to see.

You will find that it was most pervasive with the HW title.

Promoters, commissions, venue owners, managers, populace temperament, and fighters all have to be examined for each circumstance.

It's funny but most never stop to ask, if the color line was so pervasive how did Jack Johnson become HW Champion of the World? (Twice no less if you think it through i.e. they made him prove it twice.)

So it certainly can't be a simple answer.

Example:

The Carnival of Champions, Olympic Club, New Orleans, 1892 (Sullivan-Corbett) on day two (09/06) George Dixon (colored) stopped, in eight rounds, the featherweight amateur champion Jack Skelly (white), to be generally recognized as the Featherweight Champion of the World.

The newspapers that supported (racially) mixed fights claim that the all white crowd grabbed Dixon, hoisted him on their shoulders, and paraded him around the ring.

The white Supremacist papers claim the mixed bout's outcome caused rioting in the streets of New Orleans.

Which is true? Maybe both happened, maybe neither.



What you will find, when you go looking, is proof of any argument you want to champion.

If you should stumble across a truth, share it with me. Luck!

My truth is that these white boxers were scared to fight johnson, because black fighters had to fight their way to the top the hardest possible way by fighting in saloons all day everyday and they had so much experience and the white champions were not schooled in fighting to the same extent. Black men fought for food to eat whereas gentleman jim corbett didn't have such toughness. skill but not toughness.
willie you argue it's six of one half a dozen the other. That isn't like you, Expand on your ideas i am all ears!

[Willie Pep 229]

My truth is that these white boxers were scared to fight johnson, because black fighters had to fight their way to the top the hardest possible way by fighting in saloons all day everyday and they had so much experience and the white champions were not schooled in fighting to the same extent. Black men fought for food to eat whereas gentleman jim corbett didn't have such toughness. skill but not toughness.

You are going in with a strong opinion. Is this a hypotheses or a dogma?

Dempsey had a long career of bar fights; he didn't fight Wills. Was he scared?

If you say yes, Dempsey was scared, then what does that do to your 'bar fight experience' theory?

There's no way you are going to convince anyone Dempsey was afraid of a bar fight.

You can still call Dempsey scared but you'll have to come up with a much better failing than saying he feared 'bar fight experience.'

But you seem to have nade your mind up and I suspect you will indeed find sources to support your argument.

Just let me know when you're certain you figured out the truth of it all.

P.S. I have never heard a 19th Century Irishman (Corbett) called soft before. I think the Irish might take umbrage with that statement.

[max baer]

You are going in with a strong opinion. Is this a hypotheses or a dogma?

Dempsey had a long career of bar fights; he didn't fight Wills. Was he scared?

If you say yes, Dempsey was scared, then what does that do to your 'bar fight experience' theory?

There's no way you are going to convince anyone Dempsey was afraid of a bar fight.

You can still call Dempsey scared but you'll have to come up with a much better failing than saying he feared 'bar fight experience.'

But you seem to have nade your mind up and I suspect you will indeed find sources to support your argument.

Just let me know when you're certain you figured out the truth of it all.

P.S. I have never heard a 19th Century Irishman (Corbett) called soft before. I think the Irish might take umbrage with that statement.

all my ancestry is irish my mom and dad are irish and all my relatives are irish. so i wouldn't ever criticise ireland that i love and went to every summer and loved it. my dads home town had a population of 400 and gene tunney came from there. but these men were after the colour line crap.
dempsey came about after the colour line was not there anymore and dempsey followed the black men in fighting in saloons all the time so he had all that experience like black boxers had and agressive calculated style. dempsey was mixed race. the colour line was not much of an issue by dempseys era. certainly tommy burns was frightened, johnson followed him all the way to australia to offer him so much money he had no choice as he would look like a bottlejob if he refused so much money, willie play the ball not the man. you don't argue or give any reason for the colour line and why it was implimented. there must be some reason they did it? must have done it for some reason. tell me why then.
i don't want readers to think i know why they applied the colour line. i can only speculate i am not siding on either point of view. i hope willow can expand my knowledge on this subject as he seems the wisest owl here.

[Willie Pep 229]

all my ancestry is irish my mom and dad are irish and all my relatives are irish. so i wouldn't ever criticise ireland that i love and went to every summer and loved it. my dads home town had a population of 400 and gene tunney came from there. but these men were after the colour line crap.
dempsey came about after the colour line was not there anymore and dempsey followed the black men in fighting in saloons all the time so he had all that experience like black boxers had and agressive calculated style. dempsey was mixed race. the colour line was not much of an issue by dempseys era. certainly tommy burns was frightened, johnson followed him all the way to australia to offer him so much money he had no choice as he would look like a bottlejob if he refused so much money, willie play the ball not the man. you don't argue or give any reason for the colour line and why it was implimented. there must be some reason they did it? must have done it for some reason. tell me why then.
i don't want readers to think i know why they applied the colour line. i can only speculate i am not siding on either point of view. i hope willow can expand my knowledge on this subject as he seems the wisest owl here.

You say Burns was scared of JJ but money got him over it. So he wasn't actually scared.

I can't even begin to explain how wrong both the Dempsey bolded lines are.

About my opinion: I was trying to be clear that I believe all the reasons were there and maybe a few we BS Geeks haven't thought of yet.

I am saying you can believe and still feel like you proved any argument you like. So I can't give you a single reason.

We could try to list the possibilities.

1. White fighters were scared of black fighters advanced skills.

2. White fighters saw no reason to take mixed fights for less money when White fighters were available.

3. White fighters were racists and found it personally offensive to put a colored man on equal station with them.

4. Anti-mixed bout were unpopular ; commissions/States/venues could make staging mixed bouts difficult, less cost effective, and at times violent or at best troublesome.

5. White fighters were afraid of being hated by other whites if they crossed the color line.

6. Black fighters couldn't create the gate two White fighters could.

You got any?

[QueensburyRules]

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I would love to hear members here discuss the colour line in boxing and why it came about, what were the reasons for it being invented and why was america so willing to deny black boxers their fair shot at boxing titles. Can others explain? Were white men scared of black men or was it purely racism. I have read that white men back then considered black men as a different human (inferior) but growing up I always thought it was based on fear such as Jack Johnson beating Tommy Burns when Burns ran around the world trying to keep away from Johnson and how the camera men at the fight were told to turn off their cameras so the world wouldn't see Johnson knocking out Burns.
Can others explore the debate about this ancient boxing law that shames us now in our enlightened times. Some have said that johnson could beat 4 white men in one day and that there were other black boxers who were not allowed to fight despite being much better then the champion who was white.
Was the colour line based purely on fear as I believe or was there other reasons. This is one for the boxing knowledgeable and everyone who reads about boxing history.
should we condemn white men who went along with this rule or should we accept that they could only do what they were told in those days. could they have broken this rule to fight johnson and why didn't boxers like sullivan, jefferies and corbet fight black boxers was it the pressure of the times or were they just chicken/
i've even heard that the american civil war had a part to play in the south they saw black fighters as not worthy of success so they wanted to keep them enslaved.

- - Is this French Farce, English Panto, or Mongolian Goulash?

We need an identifier for the proper response...

[max baer]

You say Burns was scared of JJ but money got him over it. So he wasn't actually scared.

I can't even begin to explain how wrong both the Dempsey bolded lines are.

About my opinion: I was trying to be clear that I believe all the reasons were there and maybe a few we BS Geeks haven't thought of yet.

I am saying you can believe and still feel like you proved any argument you like. So I can't give you a single reason.

We could try to list the possibilities.

1. White fighters were scared of black fighters advanced skills.

2. White fighters saw no reason to take mixed fights for less money when White fighters were available.

3. White fighters were racists and found it personally offensive to put a colored man on equal station with them.

4. Anti-mixed bout were unpopular ; commissions/States/venues could make staging mixed bouts difficult, less cost effective, and at times violent or at best troublesome.

5. White fighters were afraid of being hated by other whites if they crossed the color line.

6. Black fighters couldn't create the gate two White fighters could.

You got any?

yes they are good reasons. that is all I was asking. You answered my question sorry if i upset you, number 3 is probably the closest truth i feel but they are all good reasons. sorry if posting my question caused you anger.

[max baer]

- - Is this French Farce, English Panto, or Mongolian Goulash?

We need an identifier for the proper response...

american sitcom.

[max baer]

You say Burns was scared of JJ but money got him over it. So he wasn't actually scared.

I can't even begin to explain how wrong both the Dempsey bolded lines are.

About my opinion: I was trying to be clear that I believe all the reasons were there and maybe a few we BS Geeks haven't thought of yet.

I am saying you can believe and still feel like you proved any argument you like. So I can't give you a single reason.

We could try to list the possibilities.

1. White fighters were scared of black fighters advanced skills.

2. White fighters saw no reason to take mixed fights for less money when White fighters were available.

3. White fighters were racists and found it personally offensive to put a colored man on equal station with them.

4. Anti-mixed bout were unpopular ; commissions/States/venues could make staging mixed bouts difficult, less cost effective, and at times violent or at best troublesome.

5. White fighters were afraid of being hated by other whites if they crossed the color line.

6. Black fighters couldn't create the gate two White fighters could.

You got any?

yes burns was scared but they offered him so much money that any excuse would look ridiculous at that point and if he did then everyone would know he was ducking him and so he had to take the fight. all your answers are based on racisim if you read them they are all basically racism. I feel today people look for racism in everything far too much but all of your answers are due to racism. none of them show the men to be noble and brave just based on racism. not due to the man being the best fighter of his era like mandatory challenger. more just politics. none of your reasons accept the fact that a black man may have earned the right to a shot at the title based on merit.
i hope my sublime response will keep you pepped!