Does a fighter's legacy take a hit if he failed drug tests at any point in his career?

[GhostofDempsey]

There are several fighters who are considered ATG, or on their way to ATG status, who have also been caught cheating, testing positive for banned substances, or highly suspect. How much do their legacies take a hit in your eyes. For context consider Canelo, Fury, Mosley, Jones Jr., James Toney, and several others. There are some like Aaron Pryor and the special water bottle against Arguello, Mayweather's illegal IV, Evander Holyfield (Evan Fields), and several more who did not technically fail any tests. Do you dismiss victories prior to their failed tests? Does it cast a dark shadow on their legacies? How much does it knock them down on your P4P lists?

[Willie Pep 229]

There are several fighters who are considered ATG, or on their way to ATG status, who have also been caught cheating, testing positive for banned substances, or highly suspect. How much do their legacies take a hit in your eyes. For context consider Canelo, Fury, Mosley, Jones Jr., James Toney, and several others. There are some like Aaron Pryor and the special water bottle against Arguello, Mayweather's illegal IV, Evander Holyfield (Evan Fields), and several more who did not technically fail any tests. Do you dismiss victories prior to their failed tests? Does it cast a dark shadow on their legacies? How much does it knock them down on your P4P lists?

Ghost,

I think the question actually impossible to reply to in general but I'll try.

It's dependent on the particular circumstances with each fighter. Often depending on whether you can point to the time the fighter went dirty (which usually is sometime before he's caught.)

But with that said . . .

I think we can see when Roy Jones Jr. slid into PEDs use, so I still see his victories over Toney and Hopkins as legit.

But somewhere after that (especially after the drastic weight gain) I believe his victories are tarnished.

To repeat: We need to actually know when the abuse started and we usually can't know when that happened so I feel it ends up tarnishing the fighter's whole career.

At least with Bonds (baseball) we can look at his statistics and pretty much spot the beginning of the abuse.

Yet with Bonds we look at his pre-PED stats and conclude he was a HOF player before the PEDs.

But some, and MBL, has decided to discredit his entire career.

I am truly ambivalent about how Bond's career should be evaluated.

With boxing it is even more difficult because without having copious statistics to work with, and only our evaluations based on observation we can't properly assess what should and should not be respected.

So the short answer: right or wrong it will tarnish the fighter's whole carrer.

[QueensburyRules]

There are several fighters who are considered ATG, or on their way to ATG status, who have also been caught cheating, testing positive for banned substances, or highly suspect. How much do their legacies take a hit in your eyes. For context consider Canelo, Fury, Mosley, Jones Jr., James Toney, and several others. There are some like Aaron Pryor and the special water bottle against Arguello, Mayweather's illegal IV, Evander Holyfield (Evan Fields), and several more who did not technically fail any tests. Do you dismiss victories prior to their failed tests? Does it cast a dark shadow on their legacies? How much does it knock them down on your P4P lists?

- - In order-
Canelo never failed a drug test, but had ghost nanogram results in the middle of extensive VADA testing well below the fail cutoff.

Fury failed, but BBBc and UKAD failed worse by butchering the process that allowed him to fight Wlad. Big blowhard and tosser ducking AJ and now Usyk, so his future to be determined by his MTK buddies.

Mosely on the BALCO client list at the time of his Oscar fight was never charged with a crime or punished by boxing. Most every Olympian on BALCO copped a federal guilty with subsequent incarcerations and fines.

Jones Jr and his opponent both tested postive for steroids in an Indiana bout that had no drug protocol policy. Both blamed it on over the counter Andro product since banned. There was no B sample to test for perspective.

Toney busted at least twice legitimately, no surprise as he had hired a tatooed biker weightlifter for his trainer.

Aaron Pryor-Trainers been mixing water bottles since the 16th century, and sometimes not even that with straight whiskey, schnapps, ect. If you study the fight, it was epic with both Arguello and Pryor on the brink going into the 14th that starts slow as the fighters worked out their lactic build up, but suddenly Pryor lashes out to finish Arguello on the ropes in a flash. Liquids the last choice for flash recovery for endurance. Inhalers are the choice, but not in play.

Ali water bottles for Foreman preparation quite white and in use during their fight. b3144cb1ba829348b1f9e846cb853308.png


May tested well below testa values of near 90 yr ol Arum's own drug test Arum ran for personal perspective. May and Oscar both also paid an undisclosed civil settlement for him and he Crack Daddy with a public letter of apology for slandering Manny, ie Ground zero for modern drug cheat.

Field using his son's name to order steroids at the local pharmacy who alerted law enforcement who called the phone number that Evan Sr answered. No charges filed.

*******, Heroin, Viagra have contaminated the world's waterways as drugs are obviously being used everywhere. The US has chosen to ignore the obvious as they do about near everything, ie the reason we're currently in the umpteenth economic depression couched politically as recession and endless WAR, Casualties, and Environmental destruction starting just before the 21st Century turnover, ie when the only danger lurking was the Y2K computer programming that the wonks managed to fix with few problems.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Oh, and Bonds a decent level HOFer before a career injury that he mitigated when signing up for BALCO, the precise point where his offensive numbers at typical end of career declines spike some 20-40%, taking just 5 years to match is previous career HR total that he rang up even more. He was prosecuted and served a house arrest, but later and million$ lighter via high powered lawyers who managed to overturn his conviction.

All the Olympians in the BALCO bust served prison terms because they lacked the funds for Bond's level lawyers.

[GhostofDempsey]

- - In order-
Canelo never failed a drug test, but had ghost nanogram results in the middle of extensive VADA testing well below the fail cutoff.

Fury failed, but BBBc and UKAD failed worse by butchering the process that allowed him to fight Wlad. Big blowhard and tosser ducking AJ and now Usyk, so his future to be determined by his MTK buddies.

Mosely on the BALCO client list at the time of his Oscar fight was never charged with a crime or punished by boxing. Most every Olympian on BALCO copped a federal guilty with subsequent incarcerations and fines.

Jones Jr and his opponent both tested postive for steroids in an Indiana bout that had no drug protocol policy. Both blamed it on over the counter Andro product since banned. There was no B sample to test for perspective.

Toney busted at least twice legitimately, no surprise as he had hired a tatooed biker weightlifter for his trainer.

Aaron Pryor-Trainers been mixing water bottles since the 16th century, and sometimes not even that with straight whiskey, schnapps, ect. If you study the fight, it was epic with both Arguello and Pryor on the brink going into the 14th that starts slow as the fighters worked out their lactic build up, but suddenly Pryor lashes out to finish Arguello on the ropes in a flash. Liquids the last choice for flash recovery for endurance. Inhalers are the choice, but not in play.

Ali water bottles for Foreman preparation quite white and in use during their fight. b3144cb1ba829348b1f9e846cb853308.png


May tested well below testa values of near 90 yr ol Arum's own drug test Arum ran for personal perspective. May and Oscar both also paid an undisclosed civil settlement for him and he Crack Daddy with a public letter of apology for slandering Manny, ie Ground zero for modern drug cheat.

Field using his son's name to order steroids at the local pharmacy who alerted law enforcement who called the phone number that Evan Sr answered. No charges filed.

*******, Heroin, Viagra have contaminated the world's waterways as drugs are obviously being used everywhere. The US has chosen to ignore the obvious as they do about near everything, ie the reason we're currently in the umpteenth economic depression couched politically as recession and endless WAR, Casualties, and Environmental destruction starting just before the 21st Century turnover, ie when the only danger lurking was the Y2K computer programming that the wonks managed to fix with few problems.

I really wasn't looking for rundown of excuses for all of these failed drug tests and blatant cheats, just an assessment of their legacies and how they are impacted by either actual test failures or being clouded in su****ion over possible PED use.

[QueensburyRules]

I really wasn't looking for rundown of excuses for all of these failed drug tests and blatant cheats, just an assessment of their legacies and how they are impacted by either actual test failures or being clouded in su****ion over possible PED use.

- - Depends on the beholder. Obviously today, prob the majority of fans will hold even minor infractions against the athlete, ie Canelo.

Prob being the majority of fans are drug users as natural environmental testing proves, as are their business leaders and politicians. How else could the current unprecedented American Gerontocracy exist without PEDs?

[Marchegiano]

I like to hold past guys and present guys to the same standards. So, while I understand modern drug taking is sophisticated and dangerous compared to like 1895 ale, I still don't much mind it.

I get that going into a fight a bit alcohol numb is hardly going to enhance a performance and going in all hoped up on designer ritaroid is pretty damn different, but I'm a man of principle not nuance. If I was going to be anti-PED I'd be anti-drunk as well. That said, I am not prepared to be anti-robinson.

[The D3vil]

This is a great question.

I struggle with this one all the time.

I admit I give guys I'm a fan of like Roy Jones, Tyson Fury, & James Toney more leeway than I give guys like Canelo Alvarez & Evander Holyfield, who I'm not a huge fan of, but I try to be objective.

I don't know what the answer is because you're not going to be able to retroactively punish guys like Jones, Toney, Holyfield, Moseley, and others who are already in the boxing HOF.

Guys like Fury & Canelo who are still boxing are such megastars that no promoters or sanctioning bodies are going to be able to do much about them, either.

I tend to do the opposite now and give guys like Nonito Donaire, GGG, and Deontay Wilder MORE credit for being overtly adamant about testing and being successful because it feels like real punishments for the guilty will not happen.

[Slugfester]

People forget or do not care. If PED guzzlers are not stricken from the record books, denied entry into halls of fame and stripped of their many laurels, there is no punishment but a short ban. But eliminating their fights from record books also changes the record of every fighter they fought. We do not want to punish all for the sins of one. Banned for life on the second infraction and their name stays on the record books with an asterisk. Tarnishing their legacy that way is good punishment.