If Ali never fought again after 1967

[Stoppage]

He wouldn't be ranked as high as he is today but I'd still consider him an ATG.

[boxingbuff]

I wasn't entirely serious with my statements, my point was to show how one could pick apart Ali's pre-comeback resume.



Ali/Clay won the fight fair but he certainly had a lot of trouble doing it. Some even score the fight for Jones although I myself wouldn't.

Doug Jones was a good fighter but he was basically a light heavyweight contender, not even a Billy Conn.

Ali may not have been at his peak but not long after he outboxed Sonny Liston in one of his best performances.



Williams did not win his comeback fights easily and the opposition he faced were journeymen. Against Mel Turnbrow, he was knocked down and won a close decision. Against Sonny Moore, he received a very unpopular decision.

In his prime he may have been a handful for Ali. He had very quick hands and terrific punching power. Only a somewhat weak jaw let him down in his battles with Sonny Liston.



It was actually a close fight. The fight was even on the scorecards and Clay even threatened to quit at one point when some unknown substance went into his eye. Ali/Clay had the fight in control most of the way however and gave a tired/injured Liston a beating in the 6th, forcing him to retire.

The Clay-Liston fight was close on the "scorecards" but Clay was in control of the fight.Just Like the 1st Ali-Frazier fight was close on the "scorecards" after 10 rounds,but Frazier was in control of the fight.You know what I mean? It was not a hard fight for Clay was it?

Yes I know Clay told Dundee to "cut off the gloves" after round four when he had that hot ointment in his eyes.He really believed it was the "White Man" that wanted him beaten.He even thought Dundee put something in the water,that water with ointment in it that got in his eyes.Geeeeezzz,would you want to fight big bad invincable,unbeatable Sonny Liston with not being able to see? Lol

I agree Williams in his Prime would be a hand full for almost every Heavyweight Champion in history.He had a murderous left hook! He also had power in his right hand.His two fights with Sonny Liston were both brutal affairs! However,Ali always had a easy time with Big Hard punchers,Forman and Liston..Against Shavers he was a shell of his former self.But Ali would beat Liston and Williams every day and twice on Sunday's.

I'm VERY bad and slow at typing.My spelling is also very bad.So I will post the rest of this post at a later time.

Oh,I believe in 1967 Ali was a much better fighter than the Cassius Clay of 1963.

[TheGreatA]

The Clay-Liston fight was close on the "scorecards" but Clay was in control of the fight.Just Like the 1st Ali-Frazier fight was close on the "scorecards" after 10 rounds,but Frazier was in control of the fight.You know what I mean? It was not a hard fight for Clay was it?

I'd say it was a hard fight. It was no Thrilla in Manila but Clay absorbed some solid punches in rounds 3, 4 & 5 and came back remarkably in round 6.

I agree Williams in his Prime would be a hand full for almost every Heavyweight Champion in history.He had a murderous left hook! He also had power in his right hand.His two fights with Sonny Liston were both brutal affairs! However,Ali always had a easy time with Big Hard punchers,Forman and Liston..Against Shavers he was a shell of his former self.But Ali would beat Liston and Williams every day and twice on Sunday's.

I think the key difference between Cleveland Williams and Shavers/Liston is that Williams had the handspeed and the stamina as well as his punching power to trouble boxers. Shavers was known to run out of gas and Liston was somewhat slow. Williams simply didn't have the durability to absorb Liston's best punches, much like Frazier/Norton against Foreman.

The Williams Ali fought was a statue and a punching bag.

I'm not saying that he would have won even in his prime but the fight would have likely been more competitive than the mismatch we saw.

Oh,I believe in 1967 Ali was a much better fighter than the Cassius Clay of 1963.

Agreed but I don't think the Ali who fought Jones and Cooper was necessarily much worse than the Ali who fought Liston, he was simply much more motivated and prepared to face the champion.

[boxingbuff]

I'd say it was a hard fight. It was no Thrilla in Manila but Clay absorbed some solid punches in rounds 3, 4 & 5 and came back remarkably in round 6.



I think the key difference between Cleveland Williams and Shavers/Liston is that Williams had the handspeed and the stamina as well as his punching power to trouble boxers. Shavers was known to run out of gas and Liston was somewhat slow. Williams simply didn't have the durability to absorb Liston's best punches, much like Frazier/Norton against Foreman.

The Williams Ali fought was a statue and a punching bag.

I'm not saying that he would have won even in his prime but the fight would have likely been more competitive than the mismatch we saw.



Agreed but I don't think the Ali who fought Jones and Cooper was necessarily much worse than the Ali who fought Liston, he was simply much more motivated and prepared to face the champion.

Gezzzzz,I wish i could type faster and better.There is alot more i want to say in my posts,but it would take forever.Williams was not fast enough to hit Ali.Ali was the most elusive heavyweight in history,and almost impossible to hit with a clean punch.I would say Ali was the 2nd best defensive fighter in the history of the heavyweight division.

Geeeezzzz,i wish i could type faster and better.There is so much more i want to say in my posts.

BTW-What did Clay weigh against Jones?

[StarshipTrooper]

Terrell-It's not like it was a real threat.Ali won 13 rounds! A one sided whipping boy for Ali.

And to think there's a certain poster on this forum (I'll refeer to him as "The Village Idiot") that swears up and down that Terrell was "schooling" and "exposing" Ali and got robbed. That particular "Village Idiot" doesn't need new glasses but rather a new set of Mark I eyeballs.....I have no clue what fight he was watching

Poet

[TheGreatA]

Gezzzzz,I wish i could type faster and better.There is alot more i want to say in my posts,but it would take forever.Williams was not fast enough to hit Ali.Ali was the most elusive heavyweight in history,and almost impossible to hit with a clean punch.I would say Ali was the 2nd best defensive fighter in the history of the heavyweight division.

Geeeezzzz,i wish i could type faster and better.There is so much more i want to say in my posts.

BTW-What did Clay weigh against Jones?

You can post your thoughts at a later date if you find the time to do it.

Ali was hard to hit but not impossible in my opinion. He was always open for the left hook at any point in his career and that was Cleveland Williams' best punch. He could throw three, four, five, six left hooks in quick combinations like no other heavyweight I've ever seen.



Now compare this Williams to the one Ali fought. He didn't even let his hands go once.

Ali was only 202?lbs against Jones but he was 201 against Cooper in 1966.

[princemanspoper]

The Clay/Jones bout was a rather amusing fight.It was the first time I've ever seen a fighter given credit for having "great facial defense".Jones had a good round 1 other than that he didn't clearly win a round onwards

You can blame the likes of Jerry Izenberg for such claims of a robbery.Ali never looked impressive against cooper to my view,It's been a while since I've seen the second bout but from what I remember Ali was somewhat tentative during those early rounds

[boxingbuff]

You can post your thoughts at a later date if you find the time to do it.

Ali was hard to hit but not impossible in my opinion. He was always open for the left hook at any point in his career and that was Cleveland Williams' best punch. He could throw three, four, five, six left hooks in quick combinations like no other heavyweight I've ever seen.



Now compare this Williams to the one Ali fought. He didn't even let his hands go once.

Ali was only 202?lbs against Jones but he was 201 against Cooper in 1966.

But Clay weighed 210lbs for Liston,his fight right after Jones and Cooper.

I watched the Clay-Jones fight last night again.....

Your correct that Clay weighed 202 1/2 lbs.

Jones weighed 188lbs,and was the #3 heavyweight contender.

Yes,Jones was a LH....But not more so than Billy Conn as you stated in an earlier post.Conn weighed in at 169lbs for Louis.The promoter was alarmed at Conn's weight,and kept it secret because he thought it would hurt the gate.

I didn't say Ali was impossible to hit.I said he was almost impossible to hit with a "clean punch" in his prime.And even Cleveland "Big cat" Williams would have found it very hard to hit Ali with a "clean punch" in Williams prime.

I watched the 1st Clay-Liston fight again last night for about the 20th time.We are going to have to agree to disagree about that fight.It was not a "hard" fight for Clay.Yes, Liston came back in the 2nd half of the 3rd round after getting pasted and cut the 1st half of the round.The only" hard round" for Clay was round five when he couldn't see.Then he took command again in round six.

If the fight had continued I can't see it being a hard fight for Clay.In fact,you can sense Sonny was running on empty,and both eyes starting to swell and the cut under the one eye.Both eyes would have been shutting as the fight wore on.It would have been even an easier fight for Clay as the rounds went on.Again,this was not a hard fight for Clay.We have to agree to disagree.

I will post about other things you said at another time.It took me 35 minutes to post this.

[TheGreatA]

But Clay weighed 210lbs for Liston,his fight right after Jones and Cooper.

I watched the Clay-Jones fight last night again.....

Your correct that Clay weighed 202 1/2 lbs.

He weighed 207 against Cooper and 206 against Liston the second time.

Jones weighed 188lbs,and was the #3 heavyweight contender.

Yes,Jones was a LH....But not more so than Billy Conn as you stated in an earlier post.Conn weighed in at 169lbs for Louis.The promoter was alarmed at Conn's weight,and kept it secret because he thought it would hurt the gate.

I'm not sure if I buy the stories about Conn's weight being kept a secret. He had weighed 180+ lbs in previous heavyweight bouts.

Even if he didn't weight much, he had still proven himself a capable heavyweight by beating several the top ranked men in the division.

Not long before fighting Ali, Jones had weighed 171 against Harold Johnson in a LHW title fight. He was never truly a heavyweight, he just had enough punching power and a good enough chin to compete there.

I didn't say Ali was impossible to hit.I said he was almost impossible to hit with a "clean punch" in his prime.And even Cleveland "Big cat" Williams would have found it very hard to hit Ali with a "clean punch" in Williams prime.

Well, he was caught with a lot of clean left hooks even in his prime and as I said before, that's Cleveland Williams' best punch which he throws with great handspeed for a 6'3, 210+ lb man. The Williams Ali fought didn't even throw punches, so it's tough to judge based on that how a prime for prime fight would have gone.

I'm afraid it's difficult to give Ali much credit for the win, he himself said that the fight proved nothing despite his performance. I do think that he performed brilliantly, he just didn't have much of an opponent against him.

I watched the 1st Clay-Liston fight again last night for about the 20th time.We are going to have to agree to disagree about that fight.It was not a "hard" fight for Clay.Yes, Liston came back in the 2nd half of the 3rd round after getting pasted and cut the 1st half of the round.The only" hard round" for Clay was round five when he couldn't see.Then he took command again in round six.

4:00

If the fight had continued I can't see it being a hard fight for Clay.In fact,you can sense Sonny was running on empty,and both eyes starting to swell and the cut under the one eye.Both eyes would have been shutting as the fight wore on.It would have been even an easier fight for Clay as the rounds went on.Again,this was not a hard fight for Clay.We have to agree to disagree.

I will post about other things you said at another time.It took me 35 minutes to post this.

I agree that Liston was spent but Liston had his moments in some of the rounds. Ali could simply take a very good punch, the likes of Patterson would have probably been knocked by some of the leather Liston threw.

[boxingbuff]

He weighed 207 against Cooper and 206 against Liston the second time.



I'm not sure if I buy the stories about Conn's weight being kept a secret. He had weighed 180+ lbs in previous heavyweight bouts.

Even if he didn't weight much, he had still proven himself a capable heavyweight by beating several the top ranked men in the division.

Not long before fighting Ali, Jones had weighed 171 against Harold Johnson in a LHW title fight. He was never truly a heavyweight, he just had enough punching power and a good enough chin to compete there.



Well, he was caught with a lot of clean left hooks even in his prime and as I said before, that's Cleveland Williams' best punch which he throws with great handspeed for a 6'3, 210+ lb man. The Williams Ali fought didn't even throw punches, so it's tough to judge based on that how a prime for prime fight would have gone.

I'm afraid it's tough to give Ali much credit for the win, he himself said that the fight proved nothing despite his performance. I do think that he performed brilliantly, he just didn't have much of an opponent against him.




4:00





I agree that Liston was spent but Liston had his moments in some of the rounds. Ali could simply take a very good punch, the likes of Patterson would have probably been knocked by some of the leather Liston threw.

Wow,you threw alot out there for a real slow typer like me.

I wouldn't say Ali got hit by "Alot" of good left hooks IN HIS PRIME.

After the 3 1/2 year lay-off Frazier hit him with "alot" of good left hooks,and some other fighters.Yes,Cooper dropped Ali with a good left hook,and Sonny Banks.But I'm not sure a 1967 Ali gets dropped by either.The Cooper rematch? Not close.Sonny banks was very early in his career.I don't see Ali getting hit with "alot" of good left hooks in his prime.Oh yes,I know that was the punch that Ali was suspectable to,and Williams had a "murderous" left hook.But prime for prime is just speculation.

You do a good job arguing(sp) against Ali if he never fought again after 1967.

And I know your just presenting what the critics would say if he never fought again after 1967.In fact,that is what they were saying about Ali's career from 1963-1967.I'm not taking what you say "personal",I'm just trying to argue Ali's point of view.Even the worst critics admitted Ali was the fastest Heavyweight of all-time.Something else I would present when arguing for Ali.I know I can't bring up Liston because his critics say Liston threw both fights.

Anyway,over time I believe Ali would be looked back upon as one of the greatest(Top 5) heavyweights of all-time.He never had a mark on his face after 9 title defenses!!