If Ali never fought again after 1967

[Sugarj]

Quite right GreatA, the purpose of my argument was to illustrate that to be honest no one's title reign was all that prestigious based on title defenses. Frankly Ali would have been better off fighting Frazier, Ellis and Quarry in 1968while he was still prime and before they all peaked. We of course would have missed the true glory of the Frazier fights in the 70s. Ali always had the beating of Ellis and Quarry though.

Hi Merseysideblood, funny that about Ernie Shavers, I found him very accessible, chatty, willing to talk about Ali, Holmes etc. He isn't as huge as he was at his peak, he did alot of weights then. I think that a fan like yourself would really enjoy meeting him. He'll tell you that he'd destroy Lennox Lewis in his prime though, a big fan like yourself might need to be prepared to hear that, ha ha.

[TheGreatA]

Quite right GreatA, the purpose of my argument was to illustrate that to be honest no one's title reign was all that prestigious based on title defenses. Frankly Ali would have been better off fighting Frazier, Ellis and Quarry in 1968while he was still prime and before they all peaked. We of course would have missed the true glory of the Frazier fights in the 70s. Ali always had the beating of Ellis and Quarry though.

If those fights never happened though, and Ali did retire for good in 1967, then I would imagine that there would be a lot of questions about how Ali could have done against them.

Lets look at it this way, at the time Ali retired he had wins over Liston, Terrell, Patterson, Folley, Chuvalo...

Quarry would go onto have wins over Lyle, Shavers, Patterson, Foster, Spencer...

Ellis beat Quarry, Bonavena, Patterson, Chuvalo, Martin...

Frazier defeated Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Bugner, Machen...

Not a big difference resume-wise.

[nachorjj]

I agree with you.Prime Tyson is my #2 Heavyweight of all-time.I see Tyson fighting Ali 3 times and Mike winning the 1st bout,and Ali the rematch and rubber match.I believe all 3 fights are very close.

Tyson's fights after his jail time should not even enter into the discussion when talking about fighters in there prime.

I also agree with your take on Ali.

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

[StarshipTrooper]

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

I think you rocks in head. Ali not prime with Freizer. Tyson more splotion less disssplin' than Freizer. Tyson trubled by Boster Duglaz. I think Ali KO Tyson and Tyson eat own chiltrin.

Poet

[TheGreatA]

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

Frazier posed entirely different stylistical problems for Ali than Tyson would.

Ali always beat Frazier to a pulp in the early rounds but it's the relentless pressure and body punching that got to him in the mid/late rounds. Tyson however is known to slow down as the fight goes on and doesn't put on consistent, relentless pressure, forcing Ali to fight on the inside like Frazier did.

[StarshipTrooper]

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

Who the hell left the damn door open?

Poet

[Sugarj]

Hi GreatA,

Quote:
'If those fights never happened though, and Ali did retire for good in 1967, then I would imagine that there would be a lot of questions about how Ali could have done against them.

Lets look at it this way, at the time Ali retired he had wins over Liston, Terrell, Patterson, Folley, Chuvalo...

Quarry would go onto have wins over Lyle, Shavers, Patterson, Foster, Spencer...

Ellis beat Quarry, Bonavena, Patterson, Chuvalo, Martin...

Frazier defeated Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Bugner, Machen...

Not a big difference resume-wise.'



Very fair point ('resume wise'), but its often the manner of the victories too. I dont want to take each guy and his victories in turn, but some of the wins above were controversial (Patterson was judged to be unlucky against Quarry and Ellis). Some were really close struggles (Frazier vs Quarry/Bonavena/Bugner). Granted Quarry smashed Shavers, but that could have gone either way! Frazier was easily the best of the bunch but he wasn't too much better, these guys were fairly close in ability.

Whereas Ali rarely lost rounds in his prime (1966 / 1967 ) and was much ahead of his competition. It is obvious from the films of Terrell, Williams and Folley that the guy was in another league.

Ali surely would have been the big bookies favorite were any of these matches made in 1968. Remember Frazier's ATG ranking surely will have come from his fights with Ali (not from Quarry, Ellis or Bonavena who are hardly ATGs and were fairly competitive with him). Without Ali, Frazier may well have run into Foreman a year or so earlier and where would he have gone from there? Foreman would no doubt have battered him another one or two times in the 70s and stayed champ until meeting Young in 77 if there was no Zaire fight with Ali.

[StarshipTrooper]

Frazier posed entirely different stylistical problems for Ali than Tyson would.

Ali always beat Frazier to a pulp in the early rounds but it's the relentless pressure and body punching that got to him in the mid/late rounds. Tyson however is known to slow down as the fight goes on and doesn't put on consistent, relentless pressure, forcing Ali to fight on the inside like Frazier did.

Not only that, it was an even fight on the cards after 10 rounds: 5-4-1 Ali, 5-5 Even, and 3-7 Frazier; most ringside observers had Ali up 6-4 at the time and Frazier took an incredible beating few fighters could endure and kept coming. Frazier then took 4 out of the last 5 rounds. Now, Frazier could do that with his incredible conditioning and stamina. How on Earth is Tyson, who gasses after 6 and decellerates rapidly from then on, going to take 4 out of rounds 11 through 15? It defies belief and makes me wonder if people are even capable of thinking analytically instead of just rooting for their guy.

Poet

[GJC]

Well said. I'd add that he ducked Harold Johnson.

When was Ali meant to have ducked Harold Johnson?

[Spartacus Sully]

I think you rocks in head. Ali not prime with Freizer. Tyson more splotion less disssplin' than Freizer. Tyson trubled by Boster Duglaz. I think Ali KO Tyson and Tyson eat own chiltrin.

Poet

...........lol