Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[JAB5239]

How many fighters floored Benny Leonard, Jose Napoles, Tony Canzoneri, Sal Sanchez, Golovkin?

They also we're not forced to take dives and carry opponents giving them more opportunities for said knock downs.

[Rusty Tromboni]

They also we're not forced to take dives and carry opponents giving them more opportunities for said knock downs.

What!?!?!?

Maybe not listen to Monte Cox so much?

[JAB5239]

What!?!?!?

Maybe not listen to Monte Cox so much?

Monte, or the dozens of other historians who have documented these things?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Monte, or the dozens of other historians who have documented these things?

Show me the dozen historians who claim Robinson and Louis were paid to get knocked down.

I want all their names and the fights associated.

[Rusty Tromboni]

So when some old-timers claim, that Dempsey would go through every champion that came after him, like they weren't even there - that's an opinion that has great credibility?

And that he would flatten Harry (Kid) Matthews, Walcott, Charles and Marciano, one after the other on the same night, in a total of 10 rounds (or, possibly, in a single round apiece!)... that sounds reasonable to you?

That Louis likely would go in the very first exchange of punches, that Foreman would get killed, that Tyson might survive the first round and make it into the second... sure, why not.

You want us to lap up all this BS without a critical question - and if someone has a sceptical mind, it must be because he doesn't know, what he's talking about, right?

Also, I'll ask you again... is it unreasonable to think, that some old-timers may remember the first fighters they idolized in their youth, as being the best they have ever seen, because they were more impressionable as youngsters?

The guy who wears velcro shoes won't give you a straight answer. He's only hear to parrot what he has heard.

But I will be the first to say the hagiography of Dempsey was ridiculous. If you didn't know who Arcel was, you'd think he was some loon pulled off the street. Not even Boxing fan, just a first rate nut job.

Sullivan and Dempsey were deified, so there's a lot written about them that's unrealistic. However, they've since suffered the worst at the hands of the revisionists, while inferior fighters like Gans, Langford, Wills, Johnson, Ali and even Robinson have been exalted to a level they never really attained in their own time.

That's not to excuse ridiculous comments made to glorify Dempsey and his prowess, but it shows that no one maintains those beliefs any longer and the issue of hagiography is still very real and needs to be contended with.

[JAB5239]

Show me the dozen historians who claim Robinson and Louis were paid to get knocked down.

I want all their names and the fights associated.

My mistake. When you started mentioning lighter fighters I thought this was the Gans thread and we were talking about him and Langford. There is much written about turn of the century black fighters and up until even the 50's and the black murderers row having to take dives and carry fighters though. Gans taking a dive against McGovern, Langford carrying Ketchel, Burley having to carry fighters and so on. These are just easily accessible facts you can look up yourself. If you want more information I can point you in the direction of some very good books that may enlighten on the subject.

[Rusty Tromboni]

My mistake. When you started mentioning lighter fighters I thought this was the Gans thread and we were talking about him and Langford. There is much written about turn of the century black fighters and up until even the 50's and the black murderers row having to take dives and carry fighters though. Gans taking a dive against McGovern, Langford carrying Ketchel, Burley having to carry fighters and so on. These are just easily accessible facts you can look up yourself. If you want more information I can point you in the direction of some very good books that may enlighten on the subject.

Yup. Poor reading on your part.

I'd love to see the evidence, though, that Gans and Langford carried fighters or threw fights.

The McGovern fight was legit, as obvious to anyone with any combat sports experience. The surrounding gossip is just that. Anyone with an IQ over 80 can discern the shortcomings of that "argument".

Not only do those who are still suggesting, in 2020, that Gans threw the fight simply not understand fighting, they can be lumped with the Flat-Earthers, Birthers, Anti-Vaxxers, 9/11 White Flag raisers, and the people who refuse to accept the Moon Landing. It's an odd internet phenomenon which persists despite being thoroughly debunked because of the odd-balls it draws together.

Actually, watching Gans and reviewing his record, he just doesn't live up to the hype. While he was quite good for his time, he's definitely not the best if his day. And he was hardly an unparalleled ATG by the measures of his Division (which, admittedly, is Boxing's most talent-laden).

[JAB5239]

Yup. Poor reading on your part.

I'd love to see the evidence, though, that Gans and Langford carried fighters or threw fights.

The McGovern fight was legit, as obvious to anyone with any combat sports experience. The surrounding gossip is just that. Anyone with an IQ over 80 can discern the shortcomings of that "argument".

Not only do those who are still suggesting, in 2020, that Gans threw the fight simply not understand fighting, they can be lumped with the Flat-Earthers, Birthers, Anti-Vaxxers, 9/11 White Flag raisers, and the people who refuse to accept the Moon Landing. It's an odd internet phenomenon which persists despite being thoroughly debunked because of the odd-balls it draws together.

Actually, watching Gans and reviewing his record, he just doesn't live up to the hype. While he was quite good for his time, he's definitely not the best if his day. And he was hardly an unparalleled ATG by the measures of his Division (which, admittedly, is Boxing's most talent-laden).

You obviously didn't read the article I posted in the other thread about the Gans fight. You know, that SOURCE I posted from 1914? I wonder why they would be writing about it years later if it wasn't true? I'd love to hear your conspiracy theory on that.

[Rusty Tromboni]

You obviously didn't read the article I posted in the other thread about the Gans fight. You know, that SOURCE I posted from 1914? I wonder why they would be writing about it years later if it wasn't true? I'd love to hear your conspiracy theory on that.

Again, not trying to insult you, but anyone who passed High School should have no hesitation dismissing that article.

First of all, it comes 14 years after the event. Second, it relies on a particular INTERPRETATION of circumstantial evidence. Third, it comes from an era when journalism was particularly questionable and carries a clear bias for Gans.

Again, we have THE FIGHT. We have their records, and accompanying reports which weren't generated by bias. The fact that you'll pass up primary information for a hagiography shows your educational and intellectual limitation.

[Rusty Tromboni]

My mistake. When you started mentioning lighter fighters I thought this was the Gans thread and we were talking about him and Langford. There is much written about turn of the century black fighters and up until even the 50's and the black murderers row having to take dives and carry fighters though. Gans taking a dive against McGovern, Langford carrying Ketchel, Burley having to carry fighters and so on. These are just easily accessible facts you can look up yourself. If you want more information I can point you in the direction of some very good books that may enlighten on the subject.

McGovern
McFarland
Driscoll
Graham
Archer
Fury


These are fighters who were clearly the victims of injustice. Looks like Irish, not Blacks or anyone else, have suffered the most.

I can actually provide evidence. I don't need to. Their careers are well known. But I didn't need supposed dozens of writers and articles written decades latter to support my assertion.