Canelo vs. the HOFers

[GhostofDempsey]

How do you call Canelo versus the following hall of famers from eras past?

160

Langford
Greb
Tony Zale
LaMotta
Robinson
Griffith
**** Tiger
Monzon
Hagler

168

RJJ
Toney
Calzaghe
Ward

175

Conn
Maxim
Harold Johnson
Bivins
Moore
Braxton/Qawi

[them_apples]

When you go that far back the game has changed so much its hard to really make a fair comparison.

for 1, its the same day weigh in, So Canelo can't cut 20 lbs. when hes fighting at 154, that's a good gauge of who he's gonna be at 160. Not that I think it matters that much, he's just middleweight whos carrying too much weight. Some of the best modern fighters have been known to barely cut anything (Pac, Floyd, Hopkins).

2:

open gloves, pre 1920 you got smaller gloves as well.

3: stoppages, I can't prove whos tougher even though I think a man from back then would be, but the rules back then allowed a man to make a 10 count, and until he couldnt stand it was an official KO. You got a lot of ref stoppages now, fighters sorta quitting inside the ring because they get paid all the same

4: They don't fight very often now, so they always have ring rust, and their punch resistance isnt gonna be as good. If you aren't sufferring from a concussion fighting more often toughens you up. Just ask a modern day thai fighter. fighting injured doesnt, a down side to some old fighters - but in general fighting more hardens you physically and psychologically.

technically some fighters are pretty good, but in all honesty I can't think of anything better about a modern fighter, besides they fight a little cleaner and have good balance fundamentals. When you look at Floyd did he's just doing oldschool **** nobody understands anymore. Pacquiao in a way is doing the same. Pacquiao is wild and off balance but hes crafty like an old fighter. The other factor is they are coming in heavier, they are carrying more weight but that to me is just lazyness.


So that being said where do I rate Canelo?

Heart: 3/5: doesn't seem to try very hard even when he could be behind and the cards are close. Even when he's champ. Could be because he knows the judges are in his corner.

Chin: 4/5 he probably has a good chin based on the shots hes taken and his build (stocky). He hasn't been hit by anything titanic though.

Strength: 5/5 his physical strength at 160 is high, because his build yes but also because he comes in very heavy and makes full use of a second day weigh in. I don't think he gets pushed around by anyone too easy

power: at middleweight 3/5 I think anyone with a decent chin and half decent skills could go the distance with him or has gone the distance with him. He's too blown up and muscle bound to not push his punches. Knocking out Khan or Kirkland does not mean you have a big punch.

Stamina: 3/5 he takes long breaks and fights flat footed because he's carry too much weight and gets tired. He paces himself all the time even if hes behind on the cards.

Defense: well his defense is good 5/5 he doesn't get hit much and he tends to fight coming forward.

punch output: 3/5 its low, partly how he doesnt get hit much

counter punching : 4/5, he counters well and has good placement

speed: 3.5/5 overated because he telegraphs a lot due to being so muscle bound. Couldn't land a single punch on Floyd Mayweather that should tell you that story. If you are as fast as he appears to be and cant lay a single glove on Mayweather while outweighing him by 20 lbs, He's obviously giving away too many tells and Floyd saw every shot coming. Even Cotto hit Mayweather a decent amount.

connect rate: 3/5 going by what ive seen its average, he doesnt always connect that flush, lots of intangibles involved here though.

inside fighting:2/5 doesn't fight inside

craftiness: 2/5 little intangibles like feints, eye feints, diversions, set ups...any type of deception - havent seen much of it. He's very text book and robotic.

Thats all I can think of for now

I'd pick Hagler to beat him, Carter, Benton, Tiger, Monzon, Hopkins, Toney, Robinson, Jones, Mcallum essentially any great champ that actually comes to take his title. I thought GGG beat him and I don't think GGG is the best to ever do it.

I think he loses to guys like Nunn, Mclellan, eubank, Benn, Calzaghe etc etc...I don't see him beating those guys even. How could he? Lara beat him, GGG beat him, Mayweather beat him and he had avantages on a lot of them and still lost.

Even in a fight like vs Lamotta, I'm sure he lands a lot on Lamotta, but I seriously doubt he even hurts Lamotta or has the ability to keep pace with him after round 6. Lammotta isnt just gonna come and lay down after he gets hit a few times lol.

[DeeMoney]

160

Langford- I love Langford, he's a big ol' tank. Probably matters what rules we are fighting with here.
Greb- Greb probably wins, but the lack of film makes this just a guessing game based on resume and reports
Tony Zale- Looking at the pre-war version of Zale here, its a close. I'd favor Zale more often than not, but can easily see Canelo taking a decision. Would be a war of going to the body.
Robinson- Robinson is just too good, too fast a puncher.
Griffith- Super fun fight. I could see Alvarez being too big for Griffith, I could see Griffith drowning him and draining Canelo's stamina. 50/50
**** Tiger- Probably looks like the GGG fight, so however you saw those.
Monzon- I think this would be a very good fight, and could see Canelo making Monzon miss a lot. I think Monzon's size and distance eventually carry the day, but Canelo shows well of himself here.
Hagler- Bad matchup for Canelo, prime early 80s Hagler does everything well and just picks him apart.

168-

RJJ- RJJ, too fast and too big. But also too cautious to make it interesting. He hits Canelo coming in then just skates to an easy decision
Toney- This fight sets a world record for the most head movement ever. Close decision, Toney's size probably carries him more often than not.
Calzaghe- Geez, this just seems like a mess. Lets say both guys try to marinate the other past their prime then both get popped for PEDs
Ward- War clutches, wrestles, and mucks it up to a MD

175- I don't really want to judge him here yet, he fought only 3 fights above MW, which would be equivalent to this weight (taking into account same day weigh ins). Just not enough sample size to evaluate him fairly.

[The Old LefHook]

Not a man was listed that he could beat.

[NChristo-]

160

Langford - Canelo
Greb - No footage of Greb
Tony Zale - Canelo
LaMotta - Canelo
Robinson - Robinson
Griffith - Griffith
**** Tiger - Tiger
Monzon- Monzon
Hagler - Hagler

168 - Loses to all

RJJ
Toney
Calzaghe
Ward

175 - Loses to all

Conn
Maxim
Harold Johnson
Bivins
Moore
Braxton/Qawi

[GhostofDempsey]

160

Langford - Canelo
Greb - No footage of Greb
Tony Zale - Canelo
LaMotta - Canelo
Robinson - Robinson
Griffith - Griffith
**** Tiger - Tiger
Monzon- Monzon
Hagler - Hagler

168 - Loses to all

RJJ
Toney
Calzaghe
Ward

175 - Loses to all

Conn
Maxim
Harold Johnson
Bivins
Moore
Braxton/Qawi

I wonder about LaMotta. Jake was crafty and faced far better opposition, and even defeated far better fighters than Canelo has.

Zale is a toss-up. He managed to go the distance with Conn, who I consider a better and more dangerous fighter than Canelo.

[Nash out]

Wins them all without breaking a sweat. Viva la Mexico.

[IronDanHamza]

Pick him to beat Zale, Lamotta, Langford, Toney and Calzaghe.

Loses the rest but probably some very close fights in those loss�s.

Could see him beating Bivins and Maxim.

[The Old LefHook]

Pick him to beat Zale, Lamotta, Langford, Toney and Calzaghe.

Loses the rest but probably some very close fights in those loss�s.

Could see him beating Bivins and Maxim.

Hammy don't allow no Toney around here!

[IronDanHamza]

Hammy don't allow no Toney around here!

Not really.

Canelo�s movement is going to trouble Toney. No doubt about it.

I�d imagine it would be a SD type of fight though.