Cooney vs. Mercer

[Rusty Tromboni]

The Mercer-Liston thread got me thinking.


Liston has to be the most over-rated Heavyweight going, after Jack Johnson. Cooney is probably the most over-cirictized.


How does the best Mercer hold up against Cooney?


I actually don't think very well. But I do think he makes it to the final bell.

[billeau2]

Liston over rated? really? I mean come on Trombone...you just throw that out there! Like you were saying good morning to Gladis Cravitts fer chrissakes!

Seriously what do you see in Cooney?

[QueensburyRules]

- -Simples-Cooney early Mercer late.

Cooney did better with the younger Holmes than did Mercer with the older though I thought Mercer gave that fight away out of pure thuggery mentality.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Liston over rated? really? I mean come on Trombone...you just throw that out there! Like you were saying good morning to Gladis Cravitts fer chrissakes!

What was his best win?

Aesthetically he's very pleasing. But he couldn't cut off the ring to save his life. (He barely could take a dive to save his life, literally, either). And his level of competition was abysmal.

Did he ever beat anyone as good as the Young, Norton and Lyle that Conney beat? No one gives Cooney any credit for those win. Those are probably the most excoriated wins over "big name" competition which I can think of.

Seriously what do you see in Cooney?

Well, one of the best one-shot knocks to BOTH the head and body for starters.

His jab was respectable. Not ATG, like his hooks, but above average.

He could box. He didn't against Holmes. But that was a skill, along with his right hand, which he was developing.

He doesn't have Wilder's focus and resiliency, but he's pretty comparable as a finisher.

[billeau2]

What was his best win?

Aesthetically he's very pleasing. But he couldn't cut off the ring to save his life. (He barely could take a dive to save his life, literally, either). And his level of competition was abysmal.

Did he ever beat anyone as good as the Young, Norton and Lyle that Conney beat? No one gives Cooney any credit for those win. Those are probably the most excoriated wins over "big name" competition which I can think of.



Well, one of the best one-shot knocks to BOTH the head and body for starters.

His jab was respectable. Not ATG, like his hooks, but above average.

He could box. He didn't against Holmes. But that was a skill, along with his right hand, which he was developing.

He doesn't have Wilder's focus and resiliency, but he's pretty comparable as a finisher.

If you look at the heavyweights...and I do not know exactly how this translates across the various divisions, many ATG's did not fight great comp.

As a matter of fact, aside from the golden 70's, and perhaps Lewis, (talk about underrated comp...) MOST heavyweights did not fight the best comp. Think about it:

Johnson, fought guys many times, from a small pool... etc
Dempsey, Sharkey? ok...Tunney to whom he lost.
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Golden years
Holmes
80's title turns over
Tyson

virtually all these guys get that same knock right? Now Lewis was superb in that he really did fight the best he could, even forsaking a mandatory, or two. But in fact Holly, who lost a lot...could be said to have fought good competition.

So to me its a bit of a not seeing the big picture. Not just you either Trombone... Apparently the heavyweight division is one where aside from the mad talent we had in the Ali Dynasty, most guys only had a few, if any epic showdowns.

Liston's comp was no worse imo given this fact. And I don't know why you think he cannot cut the ring. He was a crow stepper, so he used a slightly different approach. Crow steppers time the step with the punch, they move when you do, as opposed to moving to control the real estate.

It is a different tactic for a similar purpose. You measure with the step. you basically know that for all purposes, when your opponent steps, three things are possible: you can step with him the same distance he steps, you can stay there and he is one step farther, or, you can guage the distance with the next step as you set to punch so you catch him at the right distance. at its best the method works like sonny did it, and has all the technicality of a Mongol hord that keeps the rush up, never letting the enemy set up. Liston would know where to step while he was hitting, just as the Mongol hords would cook the meat they ate with friction so they did not have to eat AND run...Just grab the flank of beef that rode between the horse and the saddle!

So you could not get away, and Liston, great a finisher as he was, did not need to cut the ring anymore than the mongols had to study formations.

I just was curious what you saw it Jerry. Heck of a fighter, nice guy also. Just not a particularly memorable fighter. I hear a lot of talk of Quarry...another lovable Irish lug... But frankly? Tommy Morrison had the talent and punches that could have gone a lot farther imo.

[Rusty Tromboni]

If you look at the heavyweights...and I do not know exactly how this translates across the various divisions, many ATG's did not fight great comp.

As a matter of fact, aside from the golden 70's, and perhaps Lewis, (talk about underrated comp...) MOST heavyweights did not fight the best comp. Think about it:

Johnson, fought guys many times, from a small pool... etc
Dempsey, Sharkey? ok...Tunney to whom he lost.
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Golden years
Holmes
80's title turns over
Tyson

virtually all these guys get that same knock right? Now Lewis was superb in that he really did fight the best he could, even forsaking a mandatory, or two. But in fact Holly, who lost a lot...could be said to have fought good competition.

So to me its a bit of a not seeing the big picture. Not just you either Trombone... Apparently the heavyweight division is one where aside from the mad talent we had in the Ali Dynasty, most guys only had a few, if any epic showdowns.

Liston's comp was no worse imo given this fact. And I don't know why you think he cannot cut the ring. He was a crow stepper, so he used a slightly different approach. Crow steppers time the step with the punch, they move when you do, as opposed to moving to control the real estate.

It is a different tactic for a similar purpose. You measure with the step. you basically know that for all purposes, when your opponent steps, three things are possible: you can step with him the same distance he steps, you can stay there and he is one step farther, or, you can guage the distance with the next step as you set to punch so you catch him at the right distance. at its best the method works like sonny did it, and has all the technicality of a Mongol hord that keeps the rush up, never letting the enemy set up. Liston would know where to step while he was hitting, just as the Mongol hords would cook the meat they ate with friction so they did not have to eat AND run...Just grab the flank of beef that rode between the horse and the saddle!

So you could not get away, and Liston, great a finisher as he was, did not need to cut the ring anymore than the mongols had to study formations.

I just was curious what you saw it Jerry. Heck of a fighter, nice guy also. Just not a particularly memorable fighter. I hear a lot of talk of Quarry...another lovable Irish lug... But frankly? Tommy Morrison had the talent and punches that could have gone a lot farther imo.

- We saw Liston play 12 rounds of tag with Eddie Machen. (Liston was the only one who was ever "It").

- We also saw Liston nearly run out of the ring by Cleveland fookin Williams (ya know, the poor man's Frank Bruno).

- He also let both a very limited Cassius Clay and Leotis Martin off the hook, only for each man to turn the tables and stop HIM.

No way does Cooney commit those blunders. No way did Liston ever do anything as impressive as stop Young or Norton. Hell, Cooney's losing effort to Holmes far exceeds anything Liston ever did.

The fact that you are defending Liston and questioning COoney, when the evidence is so readily available, only proves my point.

[them_apples]

The Mercer-Liston thread got me thinking.


Liston has to be the most over-rated Heavyweight going, after Jack Johnson. Cooney is probably the most over-cirictized.


How does the best Mercer hold up against Cooney?


I actually don't think very well. But I do think he makes it to the final bell.

Jack Johnson is a great heavyweight, but he does get overated. He wouldn't beat Joe Louis or Ali. I mean, he fought under different rules, more grabbing, holding and hitting etc - he fought men twice as big as him and men twice as small.

Liston is overated by some and underated by others. Liston at his best probably beats most heavyweights though, he was a really good boxer with not very many flaws.

Cooney I agree dusts a lot of cats, especially today.

goes to show how much circumstances and career play a role to the publics view of percieved greatness.

You can rank fighters based on their best night, but some of those guys had terrible nights too and bad training habits. or you can rank fighters based on how many titles they won, how many times they came back etc.

Even when looking at record books, people see the names, but timing is everything really. when trying to find a sound accurate way to rate someones greatness.

Like for example, Ray Leonard beating Thomas Hearns is an A++ win. They are both prime, prime weight - Leonard is the underdog.

Robinson beating Lammotta is another. He jumped from 147 to 160 and beat the middleweight champ (1 title). we saw Brook try that and got killed.

Ali beating Foreman A++ win.

Then you got a Calzaghe career, a good fighter no doubt, but huge asterisks on his greatness and nothing there to prove if he was really great. I'm not even sure if he beat Hopkins.

I'd hate to say it, but Mayweather as well. long career lots of names, but study it and you will find he never took a single risk after Oscar De La Hoya.

[them_apples]

- We saw Liston play 12 rounds of tag with Eddie Machen. (Liston was the only one who was ever "It").

- We also saw Liston nearly run out of the ring by Cleveland fookin Williams (ya know, the poor man's Frank Bruno).

- He also let both a very limited Cassius Clay and Leotis Martin off the hook, only for each man to turn the tables and stop HIM.

No way does Cooney commit those blunders. No way did Liston ever do anything as impressive as stop Young or Norton. Hell, Cooney's losing effort to Holmes far exceeds anything Liston ever did.

The fact that you are defending Liston and questioning COoney, when the evidence is so readily available, only proves my point.

Liston playing tag with Machen was a bit of a blunder. Machen was notorious for being able to take punishment (see him vs Frazier and he's at the end of his career too).

Leotis Martin shouldn't be mentioned, Liston was heavy into heroin at that point, not the same man. If this matters than Foreman in the 90's made Cooney look like a Journeyman.
. Cooney beating Norton and Young doesn't hold much water either, they were finished by then and Cooney was right approaching his prime. On top of that Norton was always susceptible to ****ers.

[The Old LefHook]

Liston over rated? really? I mean come on Trombone...you just throw that out there! Like you were saying good morning to Gladis Cravitts fer chrissakes!

Seriously what do you see in Cooney?

Trombone gives the last word on everything like it was old hat. He is sorry he sounds so flippant. The only way he can get your attention is to make outlandish statements and claims. He thought you knew Robinson got famous beating up a bunch of small guys and Liston was most overrated ever. He doesn't just say, "Mickey Walker was tough." He announces he is the toughest man to ever sh?/span>t through a meat cornhole."

Novices are overwhelmed and rattled by such certainty of absurd opinion from one who presents himself as an "old hand" around boxing and all related matters. Then they see other veterans treating this fellow like a visiting boxing scholar, and so ends their foray in the History section, over from NSB for a tryout.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Liston playing tag with Machen was a bit of a blunder. Machen was notorious for being able to take punishment (see him vs Frazier and he's at the end of his career too).

If you watch the fight you will see that, similar to the Clay fight, Liston simply couldn't pin him down. Sure, Machen was compotent and tough, and Liston sent him into survival mode. But Liston was at a loss when his opponent wouldn't stand in front of him and get hit. Compare this to Marciano or Foreman, or even comparatively feather-fisted Qawi, who never let anyone slip away.

While Cooney isn't as good as those men, he too would have stopped Machen early.

Leotis Martin shouldn't be mentioned, Liston was heavy into heroin at that point, not the same man.

Same as every excuse provided on Liston's behalf. Point is, it doesn't align with reality. Liston was still beating top fighters. In this fight, he had Martin severly hurt. Iam not saying this was a prime Liston, but it was a step up from his performance against Clay, mind you.

Again, Cooney never let his fish off the hook when hurt. And he never got stopped like Liston did that night.

But if you really wanna run with the excuse train, remember Cooney only fought two rounds in two years heading into his fight with Holmes. He was on coke and drinking heavy - basically he entered the ring like the entitled champ, and Holmes entered like the hungry challenger.

. Cooney beating Norton and Young doesn't hold much water either, they were finished by then and Cooney was right approaching his prime. On top of that Norton was always susceptible to ****ers.

I'd say that.


If I had no idea what I were talking about.


Norton's balls shrunk against every big puncher he faced. He always backed himself into a corner. He didn't enter the fight a corpse, like Cooney did against Foreman. He entered coming off a win over Cobb. No one considered him prime, but he wasn't washed up. And even the best Norton would have metthe same fate.

Young was in the best shape he had been since the Ali fight. Clancy even mentioned how he was fighting knowing his career was on the line. He would bounce back from that loss to win a series of fights; earning him Comeback Fighter of the Year, no less.

Again, even if you don't consider him to have fought the best version of each Lyle, Norton and Yung, you at least recognize these were better men than Liston beat. It's highly improbably that Liston would beat that version of Young. Certainly not by 4th round TKO.

And remember, we're comparing Cooney, and unfinished article, to a prime Liston. Who the fook was Liston fighting in 56-58?