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Roy Jones and Posterity

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    #21
    Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
    I fully agree, lad, that a resume speaks for itself, but I also happen to think it is a long, involved document, not the simple one some people view it as.

    A full resume includes a lot of information besides the win/loss column, in fact, ideally, it includes every available piece of information, with each piece weighted properly. A win over a big name only means squat if they were still formidable at the time of the win. Geezer hunter Joel Calzaghe gets nothing but his pot of money for beating RJJ, for instance. And the list of other examples just as good is a long one.

    The sickening trend of fighters chasing after senior citizens about whom it is public knowledge they are washed up, is what makes boxing boring, lad. Get 'em while they're fresh, goes for bagels and boxers and most anything except wine and violins.

    One good thing about our present: we produce a much more thorough record than our predecessors. Because of film and its prevelance and because of the internet, our descendants will not have to guess over the kind of questions that nag us. We can tell from the record book that young fighter X fought a crafty veteran of 38, but have to guess and interpret the few or biased words of others on just how faded the veteran was and of what value the win was to X, since we were not there to view it for ourselves. Our descendants will be able to see.

    If you interview ten witnesses to a crime, you will get ten different stories. Police have known this forever. Eyewitness accounts of bigtime boxing matches (which includes TV viewers) are also notoriously unreliable. I have been wrong many times about some strong opinion I held from the old days on this or that match, until I bothered to review the films. Sometimes one is shocked at the part emotion must have played in the forming of such conclusions. My strong opinions have had their wings clipped on multiple occasions, so that leads me to be su****ious of the accounts of others, as well, if I couldn't even trust my own.

    Video is god now. We don't have to trust anyones, even our former selves, if the fight was taped.

    The record is not just who fought who, and who won, it is the whole Mary Anne. The Record requires one to mentally synthesize the complex of all known information into one mental document. In a sense, one becomes a computer, to arrive at a final impression which is still a guess.
    I agree. It's why Jones is an all-time great.

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      #22
      Originally posted by IMDAZED View Post
      I agree. It's why Jones is an all-time great.
      I agree he is an all time great. But around here the finest of discriminations are examined. We do not ask if Roy was an all time great. We are at the stage of evaluating and debating how great of an all time great he was.

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        #23
        Jones is one of those fighters who will always be what I would call astericked* Watching him on tape it is obvious that he was perhaps the perennial ambush fighter....He was fast enough to hit anyone from anywhere in the ring with no lead hand punch needed to close the gap. His athletic gifts are incredible and make him along with Ali and robinson a guy who could do things in a ring ahtletically that no one could duplicate.

        Jones should always be considered a great fighter because before he went into exhibition mode, he managed to beat some great fighters and make it look easy. Obviously when we start to taper the list it becomes hard to look at any resume and take Jones seriously alongside guys like Ali (for example). But it is short sided not to acknowledge Roy's greatness. He fell from grace and hard! but at his best he was an incredible fighter.

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          #24
          Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
          Can anyone speculate as to why RJJ is not rated as the greatest middleweight and light heavyweight in history?

          If not, well. Y'all musta' forgot.
          Roy in fantasy h2h he is considered one of the greats..

          But in terms of ATG rankings, roy just didn't have much time at 160, 168 to be considered in those divisions,, 175 was really the only division that jones really campaigned at for any length of time.. But is 175 resume is sorely lacking compared to other greats at 175 ie mike spinks.
          What makes roy great is the all the different divisions, much like manny or floyd as opposed to guys like hagler, monzon, tzsyu who stayed at one weight

          If ranking Roy's weight classes in terms of achievements
          1- 175, beat pretty much everyone and reigned from 1997-04
          2- 168, got the toney win but not much more
          3- 160- early part of career with not many challenges, beat hopkins
          4- heavy. Only had one fight, major wine but still only one fight..

          Add all that up and roy is great, but if you break it out in terms of each division, he can't be considered one of the greats (top 3) in any of those divisions..

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            #25
            Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
            Jones is one of those fighters who will always be what I would call astericked* Watching him on tape it is obvious that he was perhaps the perennial ambush fighter....He was fast enough to hit anyone from anywhere in the ring with no lead hand punch needed to close the gap. His athletic gifts are incredible and make him along with Ali and robinson a guy who could do things in a ring ahtletically that no one could duplicate.

            Jones should always be considered a great fighter because before he went into exhibition mode, he managed to beat some great fighters and make it look easy. Obviously when we start to taper the list it becomes hard to look at any resume and take Jones seriously alongside guys like Ali (for example). But it is short sided not to acknowledge Roy's greatness. He fell from grace and hard! but at his best he was an incredible fighter.
            Excellent post. He defnitely slipped into Meadowlark Lemon exhibition mode. I have applied the word asterick to him a time or two myself. That asterick amounts to a question mark, really.

            It would be preposterous to balme Roy that he was never hit solidly in his entire prime--to blame him very much, that is. Every important fight is important for one reason when all emotion and hype is over--for the questions answered.

            I don't think the kraut or Calzaghe could have beaten a prime Roy, but that is still only what I think, not what happened, and does not count at all in historical evaluations. Only what was proven is going to count to those who inspect records and films closely, not what a fan thought.

            Answer the questions to get the credit. It is such a simple thing.

            Well, if he had been hit more, we might have the answer to a terribly nagging question for boxing mythologists: Did Roy have a glass chin or not?

            Everything would have been fine if he had simply retired after beating Ruiz. He could have acheived very close to his all time aspirations on most cards, I think. But when you go and get yourself KO'd in a hurry by the likes of Tarver and a faded Glen Johnson and the Russian who simply tapped him to sleep, it opens up a legitimate can of worms, because not being hit by the scrubs he was fighting does not mean anything in bouts with the likes of Foster, Conn, Charles, Greb and Tunney, which are the kind of bouts that take place here in mythland.

            When the level of competition is that high, we know any fighter gets hit and tested, and what happens to Roy when that occurs against a Charles or a Foster?

            Moore was an all time great, but I feel he is almost out of the picture in this one. He was made for Roy, and would lose 98 out of 100 bouts to him. Too slow of hand and foot. Toney, who fought a similar style, was faster, but was still made for Roy. Do you think Roy is stepping into your pocket, son? He beat him easily, but resembled a chicken doing it.

            Later he added his gamec*ck moves to his proud poulet repetoire, and we had us a first class Meadowlark Lemon show on our hands that was supposed to delight us as much as it did him.

            But now psychohistory closes in, licking its chops.

            We cannot assign Roy a top position on the basis of what we do not know, we have to go with what was well proven by other greats, usually on multiple occasions, rather than our guesses. We are certain Charles could take a punch, and he was much faster at 175 where he would be fighting Jones. We are almost as certain that he and the other all time greats were good enough to find a way to land on Roy. A few scraps of film are extant that shows Charles was a much faster tiger at lower weight.

            Why would they be able to hit him, when Toney couldn't? In retrospect, we see how silly we were to think Toney had much of a chance. If not for the Nunne destruction, maybe no one would have given him much chance. But he had kayoed a lightning fighter a few years before, so why not again? But Nunne was no Roy. A man who stands in one place has no chance against Roy, unless he is as rangey as Foster, because he will never land a punch.
            Last edited by The Old LefHook; 01-24-2015, 01:51 AM.

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              #26
              Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
              I agree he is an all time great. But around here the finest of discriminations are examined. We do not ask if Roy was an all time great. We are at the stage of evaluating and debating how great of an all time great he was.
              Ok so where do you rank him?

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by IMDAZED View Post
                Ok so where do you rank him?
                As a light heavyweight, here are the guys I would bet on against him, if forced to bet, because I never do on fights for the simple reason that I enjoy them too much,

                1 Bob Foster
                2 Gene Tunney
                3 Ezzard Charles
                4 Billy Conn

                I would bet on those guys. Roy is vying for about fifth spot on the all time list for this division with a host of other great fighters, Jimmy Slattery, Tommy Loughran, Michael Spinks, Jose Torres, Harry Greb, Freddie Mills and Harold Johnson, to name some.

                That is about as close as I can cut it right now.

                On an all time P4P list, I don't think he quite makes top 20.
                Last edited by The Old LefHook; 01-25-2015, 03:26 AM.

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                  #28
                  Postscript:

                  The ratings above are not written in stone yet. I have a lot of trouble with Jones because he is simply different from every other all time great. He could get higher than I said above, and he could get lower too.

                  I am sure he could have been a lot better than he was, if you can imagine that. Roy Jones didn't live up to his potential. What!!!??? It even happens to all time greats.

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                    #29
                    Originally posted by Sugar Adam Ali View Post
                    Roy in fantasy h2h he is considered one of the greats..

                    But in terms of ATG rankings, roy just didn't have much time at 160, 168 to be considered in those divisions,, 175 was really the only division that jones really campaigned at for any length of time.. But is 175 resume is sorely lacking compared to other greats at 175 ie mike spinks.
                    What makes roy great is the all the different divisions, much like manny or floyd as opposed to guys like hagler, monzon, tzsyu who stayed at one weight

                    If ranking Roy's weight classes in terms of achievements
                    1- 175, beat pretty much everyone and reigned from 1997-04
                    2- 168, got the toney win but not much more
                    3- 160- early part of career with not many challenges, beat hopkins
                    4- heavy. Only had one fight, major wine but still only one fight..

                    Add all that up and roy is great, but if you break it out in terms of each division, he can't be considered one of the greats (top 3) in any of those divisions..
                    I think if you want to compare Jones jr with Light-Heavyweights throughout history then you should include his super-middleweight fights as there was no super-middleweight weight class before 1984. Otherwise you can be giving credit to older fighters who either fought, or fought against opponents, weighing in the late 160s but not giving credit to post 1984 fighters in similar circumstances.

                    Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
                    As a light heavyweight, here are the guys I would bet on against him, if forced to bet, because I never do on fights for the simple reason that I enjoy them too much,

                    1 Bob Foster
                    2 Gene Tunney
                    3 Ezzard Charles
                    4 Billy Conn

                    I would bet on those guys. Roy is vying for about fifth spot on the all time list for this division with a host of other great fighters, Jimmy Slattery, Tommy Loughran, Michael Spinks, Jose Torres, Harry Greb, Freddie Mills and Harold Johnson, to name some.

                    That is about as close as I can cut it right now.

                    On an all time P4P list, I don't think he quite makes top 20.
                    As much as I love Freddie Mills the difference between him and Jones Jr is like the difference between a horse-drawn cart and a supercar.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by Humean View Post
                      I think if you want to compare Jones jr with Light-Heavyweights throughout history then you should include his super-middleweight fights as there was no super-middleweight weight class before 1984. Otherwise you can be giving credit to older fighters who either fought, or fought against opponents, weighing in the late 160s but not giving credit to post 1984 fighters in similar circumstances.
                      That is a very good point that moves Roy up if you factor it in. A lot of great lightheavyweights would have fought for a 168 lb title if that were an option then.

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