Did Buster Douglas Really Beat Mike Tyson??

[Yogi]

As has been said time and again, Tyson lost his self-stated biggest asset: his elusiveness. No head movement, not nearly as much body movement, and more of a head-hunter then anything else. It was sad to see that.

If he wasn't in his prime for the Buster Douglas fight, then what's the excuse for his performance in the Nino Ribalta fight in '86, when the video shows that Tyson neglected much of his head movement, upperbody movement, and became a one punch at a time "headhunter" for the vast majority of the ten rounds?

And as far as your previous post and your "Cus Tyson" statement...Cus died in Nov of 1985, my friend, so I really hope that you're not saying that the Tyson of late '85 could've "shredded" a prime version of both Holyfield & Lewis, when he had only about eight months of pro experience and ten/eleven pro fights (a total of about 15 rounds) at that time...Come on, man!

[metaGlass]

And as far as your previous post and your "Cus Tyson" statement...Cus died in Nov of 1985, my friend, so I really hope that you're not saying that the Tyson of late '85 could've "shredded" a prime version of both Holyfield & Lewis, when he had only about eight months of pro experience and ten/eleven pro fights (a total of about 15 rounds) at that time...Come on, man!

Ok let me clarify. I don't mean Tyson when Cus died, I mean what Tyson would have been had Cus not died. This is very obviously hypothetical, and I'm well aware of that.

I'm just saying that in my eyes, Tyson had a lot more potential. Given another year or two, and the continuing tutelage of Cus, I think Tyson would have beaten Holy and probably Lewis too. In other words, Tyson had a lot more POTENTIAL. That's all I'm talking about. I'm not a disillusioned Tyson fan. Most of the fights he lost because of his own decline of skill and mental weakness (post-Cus); he was underdeveloped and didn't hit his peak. The biggest factor was himself, not any long-counts or head-butting or whatever.

On a final note, Foreman said earlier this year that Tyson "isn't finished," that he's a class above the rest.

[metaGlass]

Proper link

Link got screwed up, sorry.

[metaGlass]

Umm, the server is censoring the first part of the domain for some reason. I'll just post the quick blurb on Tyson that Geroge said:

SN: George, there was a recent report published quoting you as saying that Mike Tyson is not finished. Do you really feel that way, and if so, would you really be interested in training him?

GF: Yes, I really feel that way. The sad thing about it is that Mike Tyson has never gotten started since losing that title fight to Lennox Lewis. He hasn�t even had a chance to get started yet. He�s just been the most mismanaged commodity I�ve ever seen in my lifetime. The most mismanaged athlete and commodity, period. He doesn�t really need a lot of training, all he needs now is some confidence building. He has his trainers already, he just needs to get his confidence back, and I know how to get confidence back after a defeat.

SN: How can Mike Tyson reinvent himself the way that you did so successfully?

GF: First and foremost you have to understand that boxing is a sport, but it�s a lot of entertainment. Some of the greatest champions we�ve had in the past, they specialized in ballyhoo. Jack Dempsey. Joe Louis. It�s no fable that he fought Bums of the Month. Jack Dempsey would go all over to different places and even change names and fight. These guys were great American heroes and they understood the nature of boxing. Tyson got involved with some people after Jimmy Jacobs died, who didn�t even know anything about boxing, they just thought they�d wind him up and put him out there. Now, if he�s able to get out there and do this thing right, the whole world will give him respect again for getting off the canvas and coming back. Because you don�t want to leave saying �I�m tired. I quit.?You want to come back. Even if you lose a boxing match, you want to lose it where the last man is standing, if you know what I mean. Then he could go on with his life. Because quitting follows you around. He didn�t really quit, but his legs weren�t even ready for that last fight he was in. That big guy just leaned on him and his legs just gave out.

I can show him how to come back. People reinvent themselves by gathering respect from their fellow man, and that�s what he needs. He can easily do that just by applying his craft. I don�t want to get into his personal life, that�s none of my business. But as a professional boxer, he�s got a great chance, a great opportunity. All he needs is someone with him who knows boxing.

SN: It was also reported recently that Mike Tyson might be considering a four round tourney with Holyfield and Bowe. Is this an ill-advised move, a sideshow, or do you think it is a good starting point for a Tyson comeback?

GF: No, he shouldn�t even be involved with those guys. Let those guys go on. They�ve made their name, and whatever is going to become of them, has already been done. He�s the only one who�s got a future. Mike Tyson�s got a future in boxing. I wouldn�t have said this about any other boxer, but I saw him in that last boxing match, and when he went down just from being pushed and leaned on, all of his problems just came down on him at one time. The other guys, they�ve had their chances. They�ve literally gotten beat up. Tyson is unique. He stands different, a class higher than those guys.

[supaduck]

Just because George Foreman was awesome and could make a comeback when he was waaaaaaaaaaaaay past his prime, doesn't mean Tyson can. Foreman '73 could beat any 1980s or 1990s or 2000 fighter who ever lived.

[metaGlass]

Not saying anything about him coming back

I'm not saying anything about him coming back. I don't think Tyson will make a comeback to anywhere near his state in the mid-80s. I get the feeling that Tyson just wants to stay away from boxing for good, and enjoy his life.

[metaGlass]

Nino

Oh, and as for the Nino Ribalta. Tyson had a bad night. If he were this way in more then just a few fights, then I would double-guess him. He even said he had a bad night.

In his performance against Mitch Green, he went the full 10 rounds. Not because he couldn't KO him, but because he WANTED to go 10 rounds. It was pretty obvious when he was laughing at him in the ring.

If he were consistent in his performance like that, then I would wonder, but it was really just a few fights that he was like that (before the first Bruno fight anyway).

[supaduck]

Tyson said he hates his life and is looking forward to death.

[Brassangel]

And really, he (Tyson) was winning all but one round on the cards against McBride. He didn't burn himself right away and looked pretty good in round 6. He just sat down. That does say a lot about the fact that, as soon as the shenanigans with King started in 89, he lost Rooney and lost his heart to fight. It was easy to see, however, that Tyson looked pretty good at 40 when compared to many comeback champions. Ali looked rediculous against Holmes, for example. In fact, Ali basically looked rediculous from 1976-1980. Mike Tyson could still end on a positive note if he wanted to, but that's been the question of his career since fighting Douglas: does he even care anymore? The McBride fight was going well for Tyson and it looked rather promising; but quitting makes any hopes of a positive conclusion to Iron Mike's career questionable.

On a side note, George Foreman of '73 would have lost to a prime Larry Holmes. If an old, beyond-his-years Ali could stop Foreman in his prime, Holmes would have made it look easier. Don't get me wrong, Foreman is one of the greatest of all-time. Styles do make fights, however, and the dancer works well against the mummy. Holmes was very light on his feet, like a younger Ali, and he could hit a lot harder than Ali. Foreman rarely conditioned himself for the long haul. No one had even knocked Holmes out until he was in his late 30's against a young Tyson.

Oh yeah, and Douglas beat Tyson. He beat him while he was down, mentally & physically (5 lbs. overweight from previous fight), and kicked him in the package repeatedly. I like Mike and all, but that night was merely the fruition of what was already beginning to derail.

[Easy-E]

The eighth round opened with Douglas again getting the better of Tyson, but it closed with a sudden, classic Tyson right uppercut that dropped Douglas to the canvas with six seconds left. It was the only time that Douglas got careless, and it nearly cost him his eventual stunning upset. Worse, though, was referee Meyran's shabby handling of the count, which, if promoter Don King has his way, may serve to deprive Douglas of the crown that he rightfully deserves. At the moment Douglas's backside touched the surface of the ring, the knockdown timekeeper began his count. Instead of picking up that cadence, Meyran began his own count, two beats behind.
As generations of felled fighters have done before him, Douglas kept his attention fixed on the referee's hands. As Meyran signaled nine, Douglas rose, but the bell ended the round. If there was any doubt that Douglas was clearheaded and could have risen to his feet on the timekeeper's count, it had been erased right after the knockdown when Douglas pounded his left fist on the mat, in obvious annoyance at his own lapse.
Yet King, who saw his world tour coming to a screeching halt about three continents short of his grand plan, would later seize on the discrepancy in the counts as grounds to bully others into awarding Tyson a victory by knockout.
But King was not willing to allow his investment in the franchise called Mike Tyson to take the hit that inevitably comes from losing a title fight. King summoned officials from two of the major sanctioning bodies, the WBC and WBA, and representatives from the Japan Boxing Commission to a small room off the arena. Emerging two hours later, King called a press conference to announce that tapes of the bout clearly showed that "two knockouts took place, but the first knockout obliterates the second. Buster Douglas was knocked out, and the referee did not do his job and panicked. As the promoter of both fighters, I'm only seeking fair play."
Two hours after that declaration, King again summoned the press. This time, he brought along Meyran, who said, "I don't know why I start my count and make my mistake. Yes, he was down longer than 10 seconds." Also in attendance was the fallen champion. His swollen left eye hidden by dark glasses, he said, "I thought I knocked him out. I thought he was counted out."
Not surprisingly, given the sway he holds over the sport, King's transparent attempts to alter the obvious were persuasive enough for the WBC and WBA to announce that they would suspend recognition of the outcome until further review, which is expected to take place during this coming week. Even as Douglas relaxed in his hotel room with the WBC belt around his waist, the organization's president, Jose Sulaiman, was saying, "I'm very confused." Later, at the second press conference, he was no longer so confused. He said a rematch "was absolutely mandatory." But the damage is pretty much done. All King's men can't put Tyson together again.
Of course, if you want confusion, boxing is, once more, for you. For starters, there is the blabbering of governing bodies whose only apparent purpose is to collect sanctioning fees. Tyson had consolidated all three titles -- WBC, WBA and IBF -- on Aug. 1, 1987, but because the Japan Boxing Commission does not recognize the IBF, no one from that organization was represented in Tokyo. Yet the IBF did sanction the fight, and does not recognize the challenge to Douglas's victory. So at the very least, Douglas now holds the IBF title.

It's really unfair how tyson's belt was taken away from him although he clearly won the bout. If the referee counted right and claimed Tyson as the winner, Tyson would have realized that he almost could have been knocked out (which happened) and would have been more careful in the future. Tyson even claims that his career ended at the buster douglas fight. Maybe it led to his to fallout not only in the ring but outside of it as well.

if buster douglass was truly out and should have been counted out, mike would have no problem finishing him like he did to so many other fighters hes dropped in the past. instead, we saw douglass get up with a clear head and fire back shots at mike. weak argument