Tua vs. The Greats

[Left Hook Tua]

Completely missing the point as Johnson didn't fight in a manner that requires footspeed to make work against top opponents: Tua did.

Poet

actually i'm not missing the point.

you say tua is slowfooted. he is but i said it wouldn't matter as much against fighters that didn't use their feet as much as say jack johnson.

then you then pointed out how jack johnson didn't need to use his footwork. which is exactly my point.

then you said tua needs footspeed to make up for large reach disadvantages.

but the thing is jack johnson didn't have that much of a reach advantage over tua.


if it seems i'm confusing the issue , it's only because i'm replying to your statements which tbh is all over the place.

[StarshipTrooper]

oh i don't know because he jack johnson got knocked out a few times and got knocked down a few times.

Because a past-it Johnson got stopped in round 20 after gassing out against Willard?

maybe i'm too influenced by the fact that i saw stanley ketchel dropped him.

You do know that was an exibition right? You do know they were supposed to be taking it easy and putting on a show right? You do know that Ketchal (a monster puncher) unloaded his Sunday punch on a Johnson who was unprepared for it because it was supposed to be a loosey-goosey exhibition right? Oh, and you DO know that a pissed-off Johnson got right back up and KTFO Ketchal right?

you're right joe louis and joe frazier does have average chins. i just mentioned them because you said wlad and lennox had weak chins and i don't see how louis and joe had superior chins to wlad and lennox.

Lennox got iced by one punch from the likes of McCall and Rahman. Wlad got KTFO by Purrity, Sanders, and Brewster. That's a big difference from being knocked out only by the a top-two hardest Heavyweight puncher in Foreman as Frazier was and being stopped only after eating about a 100 hard right hands from a pretty good puncher in Schmeling in the case of Louis (not to mention being stopped in 8 by Marciano when he was completely shot).

no height is not irrelevant

Yes it is.

hence why size matters. bigger men usually also have the longer reach.

Weight (ie. size has no correlation to reach). Height may have SOME correlation to reach but frequently enough you have short people with long arms and tall people with short arms to make arguing height to reach fallacious. Why not just argue reach in the first place instead of arguing height since it just obscures the key attribute of reach?

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

then you said tua needs footspeed to make up for large reach disadvantages.

but the thing is jack johnson didn't have that much of a reach advantage over tua.

Johnson has a 4 inch reach advantage over Tua.....Oh wait! That's the same reach advantage Chris Byrd had over Tua.....and Tua LOST to Byrd.

You see, this is why I don't as a rule waste my time aguing with nuthuggers: No matter what you say to them, no matter what points you make, no matter what evidence you provide they just don't get it. It's a pointless exercise to try and use common sense to someone who is dealing in propoganda for their boy.

Poet

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

Johnson has a 4 inch reach advantage over Tua.....Oh wait! That's the same reach advantage Chris Byrd had over Tua.....and Tua LOST to Byrd.

You see, this is why I don't as a rule waste my time aguing with nuthuggers: No matter what you say to them, no matter what points you make, no matter what evidence you provide they just don't get it. It's a pointless exercise to try and use common sense to someone who is dealing in propoganda for their boy.

Poet

Green K has been sent. I wish i had more Green to hit you with Poet.

[nomadman]

who are you trying to fool with remarks like this about David Tua who was never ever a top flight fighter in his whole career. take away his lucky win over John Ruiz and his ko over old michael moorer and he achieved absolutely nothing yet some on here are saying he could beat ATG fighters which is simply taking it all too far.

Not trying to fool anybody Jerry. You only have to take a look at the fights and try yourself not to get fooled by Tua's stocky physique and slow as molasses feet. His hands were fast, way above average. You don't throw three hard successive left hooks in under a second if you aren't. As for his achievements, sure take away the Ruiz and Moorer wins and Tua's resume does look rather bare. Thing is, those two wins were probably two of the sickest, most devastating knockouts I can recall (only Ingo Machen springs to mind) and he routinely displayed that type of power time and again, often late in the fight whilst trailing on the cards. Coupled with his risilience Tua is very much a fighter who could pose big problems for nearly anybody, despite his lack of credentials. I've already given my opinions on how the fights go down and I have Tua losing to the majority of fighters on that list, but that doesn't take away from the fact that at any time he's just one left hook away from a win. Ok, that's an exaggeration. Two left hooks.

[nomadman]

Sounds like you maybe think Tua is better then Marciano because Marciano ran 15 miles a day during training. I think its better to train to be light then heavy for boxing. You don't need big muscles to generate velocity. How Many top fast ball pitchers in MLB history are bulked up? I think all of them have lean muscles. Plus lean Muscles don't require as much blood so the heart does not have to work as hard to supply the muscles. If a boxer trains to be lean instead of bulked up they should be able to generate more velocity and also not get as tired while throwing their hard shots.

I'm not sure where you got that from my post. My point is simply that they're two different body types. What works for Marciano I suspect wouldn't work for Tua and vice versa. Would Marciano be able to bulk up to a muscular 220lb and still be able to move? Unlikely. Just as Tua wouldn't be able to get down to 180lb without looking like a skinny crackhead. A big part of Tua's speed and power comes from his explosiveness, his ability to rapidly contract his muscles in the required manner to throw a punch. Like Tyson he seems to be a guy with a lot of fast twitch muscle fibres. His muscle mass most certainly does contribute to his speed, just as it contributes to Tyson's and to take that away from him (which is what you'd be doing if you're trying to get him down to 180lb) would only have a detrimental effect.

[nomadman]

If a boxer trains to be lean instead of bulked up they should be able to generate more velocity and also not get as tired while throwing their hard shots.

By the way, quick question. Who's faster? Margarito or Pascal?

[Left Hook Tua]

Because a past-it Johnson got stopped in round 20 after gassing out against Willard?

jack johnson got koed before he was past it you know.

jack johnson also got hurt in a lot of fights including exhibitions.

just because he didn't get koed a ton or knocked down as much as patterson did doesn't mean he had a great chin.

his style didn't really leave him open to many clean shots. or follow up shots when hurt.


i'm not the only one who think jack johnson had a bad chin. quite a few boxing writers and historians have commented on it. in fact i base a lot of my opinions on what they wrote since obviously they got to see jack johnson fight.

though there are a few who say jack johnson's chin also wasn't as bad as some make it out to be , nat fleischer being one of them.

[StarshipTrooper]

Green K has been sent. I wish i had more Green to hit you with Poet.

Why thank you Sir! You're a scholar and a gentleman :grin9:

BTW, Johnson frequently gets short-shift around here (as Dempsey has in the past). I think it comes down to general ignorance of the circumstances and conditions fighters fought under back then and a lack of appreciation for their significance in the few that aren't ignorant. People like to say "well so-and-so from recent times would never have lost to a crappy non-entity like Sam Skip back in 1910 did" when, of course, so-and-so from recent times wouldn't have never have fought said non-entity on stomach that's been empty for 5 days and he was desparate for food money.

Poet

[Left Hook Tua]

You do know that was an exibition right? You do know they were supposed to be taking it easy and putting on a show right? You do know that Ketchal (a monster puncher) unloaded his Sunday punch on a Johnson who was unprepared for it because it was supposed to be a loosey-goosey exhibition right? Oh, and you DO know that a pissed-off Johnson got right back up and KTFO Ketchal right?

really? i had no idea.......

plus jack didn't have a very good chin.

hell , a middleweight stanley ketchel dropped him. yes i know jack was taking it easy on stanley (it was an exhibition and they had a "gentleman's agreement) but still he dropped him.

though jack did make him pay by taking out half of his teeth.