Jack johnson - How good was his chin?

[GhostofDempsey]

An anonymous source is not a primary one.

I posted that Johnson signed to defend against all those three.

I gave the full details of each proposed defence.

I posted the reasons they did not happen.

You've posted not one single primary source.

McKetrik was Jeannette's manager FFS! Objective?

You posted Johnson was lucky not to lose to battling Jim Johnson,you didnt mention he was fighting with a broken arm,I have a ringside round by round report of that fight.
Your statement is not supported by the facts.

Your argument that Johnson did not have a good chin is based on .
1.A spar in which an acknowledged heavy puncher put him through the ropes.Johnson did not end his sparring then as you stated.he continued sparring with 3 more partners.

How many champions have but put through the ropes/floored in sparring?

Rocky Marciano was floored by Toxie Hall whilst sparring for the ****ell fight.

Charley Goldman sent him for a shower.
Does This mean Marciano had a weak chin ?

Vitali Klitschko was floored by 2 of his sparring partners Raphael Butler and Travis Walker.

Was his chin weak?

http://jeetwin55.com/articles...cked-down-twic


Mike Tyson was floored by Greg Page,did Tyson have a weak chin?

Sonny Liston was floored in Sweden by Ray Patterson, weak chin?

There is a documented story that Jim Corbett dropped Jim Jeffries in a spar on a hand ball court,was Jeffries chin suspect?

2. Johnson was floored by Ketchel, if it was legit do you not think Ketchel had the power to drop heavyweights? He stopped Porky Flynn.

I pointed out that several men Ketchel's size Fitzsimmons, Langford regularly knocked down, and knocked out
heavyweights,were their victims weak chinned?


This is your sole basis for saying Johnson chin was weak .

When I pointed out he was actually only ko'd twice in76 fights you said ,well they were all past their prime or small.

I then posted examples of big men ,he fought who did not floor him.

Your reply was they were all either washed up or no hopers.
See below
Klon***e 6ft 200lbsx3 The only one to floor him.
McCormick 6ft 2 1/ 2 175lbs
Scanlan 5 ft 11 1/2 170's lbs
Everett 6 ft1/2 185 /225 lbs
Griffin 6 ft 1 180lbs x3
Kennedy 6ft 2 200lbs+
Russell 6ft 3 ?
Martin 6ft 3 1/2 210lbs
McVey 5 ft 10 203lbs
Ferguson 6 ft 3 1/2 ?x5
Butler 6ft 1/2 ?
McVey 5ft 10 206lbs
Ferguson 6ft 3 1/2 210lbs
McVey 5 ft 10 207lbs
Martin 6ft 3 1/2 210lbs
Jeffords 6ft 4 ?
Munroe 5ft 111/ 2 225lbs +
Ferguson 6 ft 3 1/2x4
Jeannette 5ft 10 1/2 185/190lbs x7
Felix 6ft 3 183lbs
Ross 5 ft 9 214lbs
Kaufman 6ft 1 191lbs
Jeffries 6ft 225lbs
Johnson5ft 10[estimates vary] 222 1/4lbs
Moran 6 ft 1 203lbs He landed a big right with his Mary Ann,Johnson stood back and applauded him,it's on film.
Lodge 6ft 4 227lbs
Lester 6 ft 3 1/2 225lbs


42 fights with the above . A 76 fight total so he fought plenty of decent sized heavyweights quite a few of whom outweighed him and were taller.
Your excuse was Johnson did a lot of holding ,so did this stop these men from landing anything significant on him?
Your obvious response should have been, Johnson had excellent defence ,but you couldn't bring yourself to say that could you.


I'm 76 I don't hero worship anyone.

Who are these racially motivated fans of Johnson?

You've made an unsupported statement yet again

Now name them?

For the record my favourite fighter is Dempsey.Irony?

Johnson is not in my top 20 favourites,
I prefer guys like.
Langford.
Moore
Foster
Duran
Ali
Holmes
Corrales
Robinson
Trinidad
Pacquiao
Golovkin
Hagler
Hearns
Barrera
Pintor
Carbajal
Napoles
R Leonard
Chavez
Ike Wiliams
Beterbiev
Benavidez


I'm just interested in establishing the truth, something that, on this subject, isn't high on your list of priorities.

Now you've exhausted all your excuses, you've resorted to calling me and Travestyny names.

Ghost , you're not worth the time I spent on you.

You're Just A Hater.
It's a shame because you have a lot to offer the forum,just not on the subject of Jack Johnson! lol

The quote I posted was from Jack Johnson’s autobiography written in 1927. It’s his own words. Published while he was alive and well. Never disputed. As I said, you cherry pick sources to suit your agenda and dismiss everyone else’s. Always quick with a deflection or excuse.

Johnson was floored by much smaller men. Ones who were too fast for him and he couldn’t bear hug his way to victory. The big men you cite are a long list of never-was or washed up opponents.

Aww, you defending Travy just because he agrees with you? lol. He is a race-obsessed poster who only contributes to threads regarding him Johnson, Wills, Dempsey or Floyd. He has zero boxing knowledge, it’s all selective Googling. Let’s not pretend that either of you haven’t done your share of name-calling. I have the quotes and can provide plenty of screenshots.

[Bronson66]

The quote I posted was from Jack Johnson’s autobiography written in 1927. It’s his own words. Published while he was alive and well. Never disputed. As I said, you cherry pick sources to suit your agenda and dismiss everyone else’s. Always quick with a deflection or excuse.

Johnson was floored by much smaller men. Ones who were too fast for him and he couldn’t bear hug his way to victory. The big men you cite are a long list of never-was or washed up opponents.

Aww, you defending Travy just because he agrees with you? lol. He is a race-obsessed poster who only contributes to threads regarding him Johnson, Wills, Dempsey or Floyd. He has zero boxing knowledge, it’s all selective Googling. Let’s not pretend that either of you haven’t done your share of name-calling. I have the quotes and can provide plenty of screenshots.

I have the book FYI its ghosted ,Johnson did not write it! It was translated from the French to English twice ,by an unnamed scribe neither version is accurate .Oh and it was disputed ,bitterly disputed by Johnson.Why don't you do some research?

Name all these "much smaller men", who floored Johnson?
Choynski and Johnson were both super middles when they fought.Johnson was green which was acknowledged by Choynski.

The Ketchel KD is very much disputed,but,if by chance it was genuine, a 170lbs man known as a ferocious puncher ,who had twice kod the reigning Lhv champ O Brien ,floored Johnson,who got up and kod him with the very next punch.

For your information and you could certainly use some.

In116 fights O Brien was ko'd 3 times once by Langford and twice by Ketchel.
Among those who couldn't ko him were
Fitzsimmons
Choynski
McCoy
Maher
Burns
Walcott
Hart

All punchers.
Now name another much smaller man who floored Johnson to go along with Ketchel which is a debateable KD anyway?
You can't = Epic Fail On Your Part.
Here's some stats of Johnson opponents for you.
Jeannette 84 w 70kos
Jeffords 22w 12 kos
Hart 28w 20 kos
Martin23 w 17 kos
McVey74 w 60kos
Black Bill 29 w 24kos
Butler38 w 32 kos
Griffin29w 22 kos
Everett 32 w 29 kos
Choynski57 w 41 kos*
Scanlan42 w 36 kos
Langford178w 128 kos
* Out of those Only Choynski stopped him.Only Choynski dropped him

Yes I've responded to insults in kind several times ,but YOU started the ball rolling on this thread ,and you did so because you have no other ammunition to fire ,you know nothing about Johnson.
I'll correct that,you know one thing and that with great certainty.
YOU HATE HIS GUTS! lol

Travestyny doesnt need anyone to defend him, least of all me.

He accompanies his posts with researched primary sources,that rip the **** out of your pathetic attempts at presenting an argument.
He and I fundamentally disagree on the subject of Jack Dempsey,but I respect his opinions because he is always prepared to back them up with verified sources,you offer NOTHING except a well nurtured hate.


Let's be honest here, you've disliked me since my very first post here,objectivity is something completely alien to you.
Now I think we have exhausted the subject don't you,there's no point me arguing further against a closed mind.

[Bronson66]

He was kod a few times in his career. He was floored by a middleweight in Ketchel. The reason i can't rate Johnson as the greatest is because i question his chin.

Three times in76 fights,once when green ,once when 37 ,and once when 40.

[QueensburyRules]

Three times in76 fights,once when green ,once when 37 ,and once when 40.

- - JJ with 6 KO losses

Jeff 5-0-1 age 22 drew with 29 yr old Choynski knocking him down once.

JJ 5-1-2 age 22 KOed by 32 yr old Choynski who had been KOed recently by Sharkey and Barbados Joe Walcott.

With your lack of judgement, you must be picking the worst of your French culinary experiences.

[GhostofDempsey]

I have the book FYI its ghosted ,Johnson did not write it! It was translated from the French to English twice ,by an unnamed scribe neither version is accurate .Oh and it was disputed ,bitterly disputed by Johnson.Why don't you do some research?

Name all these "much smaller men", who floored Johnson?
Choynski and Johnson were both super middles when they fought.Johnson was green which was acknowledged by Choynski.

The Ketchel KD is very much disputed,but,if by chance it was genuine, a 170lbs man known as a ferocious puncher ,who had twice kod the reigning Lhv champ O Brien ,floored Johnson,who got up and kod him with the very next punch.

For your information and you could certainly use some.

In116 fights O Brien was ko'd 3 times once by Langford and twice by Ketchel.
Among those who couldn't ko him were
Fitzsimmons
Choynski
McCoy
Maher
Burns
Walcott
Hart

All punchers.
Now name another much smaller man who floored Johnson to go along with Ketchel which is a debateable KD anyway?
You can't = Epic Fail On Your Part.
Here's some stats of Johnson opponents for you.
Jeannette 84 w 70kos
Jeffords 22w 12 kos
Hart 28w 20 kos
Martin23 w 17 kos
McVey74 w 60kos
Black Bill 29 w 24kos
Butler38 w 32 kos
Griffin29w 22 kos
Everett 32 w 29 kos
Choynski57 w 41 kos*
Scanlan42 w 36 kos
Langford178w 128 kos
* Out of those Only Choynski stopped him.Only Choynski dropped him

Yes I've responded to insults in kind several times ,but YOU started the ball rolling on this thread ,and you did so because you have no other ammunition to fire ,you know nothing about Johnson.
I'll correct that,you know one thing and that with great certainty.
YOU HATE HIS GUTS! lol

Travestyny doesnt need anyone to defend him, least of all me.

He accompanies his posts with researched primary sources,that rip the **** out of your pathetic attempts at presenting an argument.
He and I fundamentally disagree on the subject of Jack Dempsey,but I respect his opinions because he is always prepared to back them up with verified sources,you offer NOTHING except a well nurtured hate.


Let's be honest here, you've disliked me since my very first post here,objectivity is something completely alien to you.
Now I think we have exhausted the subject don't you,there's no point me arguing further against a closed mind.

Always with an excuse and a long-winded one, like I said. It was translated from Johnson’s own words. He never disputed anything written in it. He was quoted saying he would draw the color line more than once. You just can’t stand to lose. You’re just like your little sister on here, she must always “win” at all costs, bringing that estrogen energy to the forums.

As I said, you keep repeating yourself and spinning your wheels as if that will change the facts. Johnson fought Jeannette and McVey when they were novices and Jeannette already had several losses. He had Jack’s number in their last fight and insisted Johnson fought dirty. He was never given a legit title shot by Johnson. As I mentioned in prior post, half those men were no-hopers and never-was opponents, their records and KO percentage are irrelevant.

You lash out at anyone who disagrees with you and then play victim. I don’t like you or dislike you. You’re an anonymous poster with opinions just like everyone else. I thought you said you wasted enough time on me, or are you lying about that too?

[Bronson66]

Always with an excuse and a long-winded one, like I said. It was translated from Johnson’s own words. He never disputed anything written in it. He was quoted saying he would draw the color line more than once. You just can’t stand to lose. You’re just like your little sister on here, she must always “win” at all costs, bringing that estrogen energy to the forums.

As I said, you keep repeating yourself and spinning your wheels as if that will change the facts. Johnson fought Jeannette and McVey when they were novices and Jeannette already had several losses. He had Jack’s number in their last fight and insisted Johnson fought dirty. He was never given a legit title shot by Johnson. As I mentioned in prior post, half those men were no-hopers and never-was opponents, their records and KO percentage are irrelevant.

You lash out at anyone who disagrees with you and then play victim. I don’t like you or dislike you. You’re an anonymous poster with opinions just like everyone else. I thought you said you wasted enough time on me, or are you lying about that too?

Still hanging you hat on that comic.Mes Combats which for your information was first published in1911 then again 1914 by Praeger Publishers Translated from the French by Christopher Rivers and heavily edited,and altered .

DEC 30 1911 Johnson agrees to defend against Sam Mcvey in Sydney on Easter Monday for $30,000 plus $5000 expenses.,Opposition from the Australian Clergy got this fight stopped the promoter then suggested moving it to Paris to take place not in April but onJune 23rds but between times Johnson had been offered $30,000 plus$1,500 expenses plus a percentage of the film rights to defend against Jim Flynn in July in the US Johnson rather naturally took the Flynn fight which involved no extended boat ride to Down Under.
Taken from The Manchester Guardian Jan 3r 1912 and the Salt Lake TribuneJan 4th 1912


How did Jeannette have Johnson's number in their last fight?
Johnson floored Jeannette with a left hook in the last round and was still on the floor when the final bell rang.
I have the round by round report of this fight.What do you have to form your opinion thatJeannette had Johnson's number? You didnt even know Jeannette was floored in the last round and the final bell interrupted the count at 5.lol


Johnson was winning in their 2nd fight what would be him motive for fouling Jeannette?
" Johnson was beating Jeannette but lost via disqualification in the 2nd round.

Johnson had been outclassing Jeannette for a round and a half,but then lost as the result 5 of an "alleged foul""
Philadelphia Public Ledger Nov 26 1905

Dec 2 1905Johnson drops Jeannette4 times in a 6 round fight.

The McMahon Brothers offered Johnson $30,000 to defend against Jeannette in NY.Johnson accepted and posted a cash bond,sealing the deal.
Jan11 1912 New York Boxing Commissioner Frank O Neil states he will not allow Johnson to box in NY.
" I Have come to the conclusion it is against public policy and expediency to have Johnson box here ,this is final."

Dan McKetrick ,Jeannette's manager offers Johnson$15,000 to defend against Jeannette.

"This McKetrick makes me tired.At first he said Jeannette was a marathon fighter , that he could beat me over a route but would have no chance in ten rounds.Now he wants to make it ten rounds and bunk the public because he knows I can make Joe look foolish.However,if he comes across with a $30,000 bid he can have a ten round whirl before I box Flynn"
Jack Johnson,.Salt Lake TribuneJan12 1912 Tacoma TimesJan11 1912
Pages 582 and 583 Jack Johnson The Reign Adam Pollack
So was Adam Pollack lying too?Just like you said I was?
You've no answer to my primary sources and trust me, I have loads of them,so you resort to calling me a liar,well I'm directly quoting a man who has written 3 volumes of biography on Johnson so you are calling him a liar too.
I'll call you something now and there's an end to it .

You are a sad hater.BYE

[travestyny]

Always with an excuse and a long-winded one, like I said. It was translated from Johnson’s own words. He never disputed anything written in it. He was quoted saying he would draw the color line more than once. You just can’t stand to lose. You’re just like your little sister on here, she must always “win” at all costs, bringing that estrogen energy to the forums.

As I said, you keep repeating yourself and spinning your wheels as if that will change the facts. Johnson fought Jeannette and McVey when they were novices and Jeannette already had several losses. He had Jack’s number in their last fight and insisted Johnson fought dirty. He was never given a legit title shot by Johnson. As I mentioned in prior post, half those men were no-hopers and never-was opponents, their records and KO percentage are irrelevant.

You lash out at anyone who disagrees with you and then play victim. I don’t like you or dislike you. You’re an anonymous poster with opinions just like everyone else. I thought you said you wasted enough time on me, or are you lying about that too?

Lots of crying here while Bronson is spanking you

[Biledriver]

Lots of crying here while Bronson is spanking you

Got to remember: GhostofCasper on shows up to white knight melanin deficient fighters. Otherwise, he stays in the Lounge with the rest of the St0rmFr0nt crowd.

[GhostofDempsey]

Still hanging you hat on that comic.Mes Combats which for your information was first published in1911 then again 1914 by Praeger Publishers Translated from the French by Christopher Rivers and heavily edited,and altered .

DEC 30 1911 Johnson agrees to defend against Sam Mcvey in Sydney on Easter Monday for $30,000 plus $5000 expenses.,Opposition from the Australian Clergy got this fight stopped the promoter then suggested moving it to Paris to take place not in April but onJune 23rds but between times Johnson had been offered $30,000 plus$1,500 expenses plus a percentage of the film rights to defend against Jim Flynn in July in the US Johnson rather naturally took the Flynn fight which involved no extended boat ride to Down Under.
Taken from The Manchester Guardian Jan 3r 1912 and the Salt Lake TribuneJan 4th 1912


How did Jeannette have Johnson's number in their last fight?
Johnson floored Jeannette with a left hook in the last round and was still on the floor when the final bell rang.
I have the round by round report of this fight.What do you have to form your opinion thatJeannette had Johnson's number? You didnt even know Jeannette was floored in the last round and the final bell interrupted the count at 5.lol


Johnson was winning in their 2nd fight what would be him motive for fouling Jeannette?
" Johnson was beating Jeannette but lost via disqualification in the 2nd round.

Johnson had been outclassing Jeannette for a round and a half,but then lost as the result 5 of an "alleged foul""
Philadelphia Public Ledger Nov 26 1905

Dec 2 1905Johnson drops Jeannette4 times in a 6 round fight.

The McMahon Brothers offered Johnson $30,000 to defend against Jeannette in NY.Johnson accepted and posted a cash bond,sealing the deal.
Jan11 1912 New York Boxing Commissioner Frank O Neil states he will not allow Johnson to box in NY.
" I Have come to the conclusion it is against public policy and expediency to have Johnson box here ,this is final."

Dan McKetrick ,Jeannette's manager offers Johnson$15,000 to defend against Jeannette.

"This McKetrick makes me tired.At first he said Jeannette was a marathon fighter , that he could beat me over a route but would have no chance in ten rounds.Now he wants to make it ten rounds and bunk the public because he knows I can make Joe look foolish.However,if he comes across with a $30,000 bid he can have a ten round whirl before I box Flynn"
Jack Johnson,.Salt Lake TribuneJan12 1912 Tacoma TimesJan11 1912
Pages 582 and 583 Jack Johnson The Reign Adam Pollack
So was Adam Pollack lying too?Just like you said I was?
You've no answer to my primary sources and trust me, I have loads of them,so you resort to calling me a liar,well I'm directly quoting a man who has written 3 volumes of biography on Johnson so you are calling him a liar too.
I'll call you something now and there's an end to it .

You are a sad hater.BYE

You’ve regurgitated this one-sided copy and paste job over and over. The history books reflect Johnson drew the color line as champion, he admits it himself several times. All of the black fighters he ducked as champion insisted he didn’t give them a shot, now you call all of them Laura’s, when Johnson himself has no credibility and is a proven liar.

His last fight with Jeannette was a draw, two fights prior he was beating Johnson until he was fouled and Johnson DQ’d. This is still a novice level Jeannette mind you. It’s no wonder Johnson refused to give him his title shot once he hit his prime.

"When Johnson won the title he drew the color line against his own people " - Joe Jeannette

In 1909 Johnson reneged on his contract to give Langford a title shot when he won the title. He later lied and said it wasn’t him who signed it yet it was proven he did. I made a thread about it and your little sister on here called it a revenge thread, lol,

In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson ?000, which was approximately $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

[GhostofDempsey]

Got to remember: GhostofCasper on shows up to white knight melanin deficient fighters. Otherwise, he stays in the Lounge with the rest of the St0rmFr0nt crowd.

Oh it’s another race-obsessed troll who contributes absolutely nothing to the forums. No wonder you two get along so well. You were banned once before Defector, along with Bronson/Ivich.

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