Turn of the century round robin non-champs

[Marchegiano]

Philly Jack O'Brien, maybe? Bit latish for 90-02 but also pretty great contender.

Maybe Hank Griffin?

I know Tommy Ryan did a little HW mingling but it's a bit hard to count him as a HW. Same for original Walcott. Not bad names though, imo.

Laing's a bit early but not a bad name to add imo.

Steve O'Donnell's best days are behind him by the 90s but he was still respected. He fits the timeframe perfectly though, having been an active fighter the entire 1890-1902 period and being a true Heavyweight he's probably my best candidate yet.

Dunkhorst maybe? Bit late and a bit not very great but he did fight some of the best of the period ... and lost.

That's about all I have. If I can think of other names that fit the bill I'll come back and post them.

[Dr. Z]

Good idea to exclude Jackson, he would be an obvious winner. I don't think Cardiff or Kileen are relevant to the period 1890-1902, Patsy had three fights in that timeframe and lost the lot, Kileen too was dissipated and had no worthwhile wins. An obvious replacement from that side of the range would be Joe McAuliffe who defeated both. At the other end I'd respectfully suggest "Denver" Ed Martin to complete your 16. The new wave of Root, Gardiner, Ferguson, O'Brien, McVey were just edging in around 1902 but truly belong to the next period.
Oh, and I just spotted Mitchell in there, he had at best two gloved fights after 1897, a blowout of overmatched Upham and a retirement fund fight with Corbett. Replacement suggestions? maybe Hall, Creedon, Joe Kennedy, Peter Felix? It's your gig.

I don't know much about Hall. Killen was a rare puncher for the times. His only two losses were fishy. A true wild card, who died young. I think he stays. Good call on McAuliffe. Any other suggestions from the board?

[QueensburyRules]

It wasn't filmed , the weather was too poor to film there are some still pictures of the small crowd ,thats all.
The fight was not in the middle of the Rio Grande it was held in Mexico.
image.png image.png

- - It was filmed. The spit island was in the middle of the Rio Grande, no man's land, the international border.

Either it it was never developed, or was lost, or converted because of poor quality lighting in the overcast misting evening hours to be filmed over in the next fight in Reno, Fitz vs Corbett that became the first full length feature film record and the first International Blockbuster.

Why don't you shoot your ugly mug in a shuttered room at night and post it here for comparative purposes.

We won't snicker, I promise......

[Willow The Wisp]

Okay I'll do it.

I would need four more fighters from 1890-1902 to make this tournament work smoothy. I am barring Peter Jackson because the Aussie champion and British empire champion is just too good! No lineal champions either. Any others? I need four more. I can put Bob Armstrong and Hank Griffin in the mix. And say Cardiff and Killen in there. That will make 16 men. We can all vote who wins and I'll offer a write up on the fights and offer a brief bio of the fighters and set the brackets up. A boxing March Madness tournament for 1890 - 1902. Good idea?

Good thread.
You go for it Z! The open ended inclusion of entrants in the question post was a sticking point for me too.

Here is a short pick list of some noted top Heavyweights (or those seeking prey in that division ( c.1890 - 1905).

Peter Jackson b. 1861
Philadelphia Jack O'Brian b. 1878
Joe Choynski b. 1863
Tommy Burns b. 1881
Marvin Hart b. 1876
Jake Kilrain b. 1859
Peter Maher. B. 1869
Charles "Kid" McCoy b. 1872
Gus Lambert b. 1860
George Gardner b. 1877
Claude "Black Bill" Brooks b. 1877
Gus Ruhlin b. 1872
Bob Armstrong b. 1873
Jack Root b. 1876
Frank "Paddy" Slavin b. 1862
Morris Harris b. 1885
"Mexican" Pete Everett b. 1875
Joe McAuliffe b. 1864
Joe Goddard b. 1861
Theodore Van Buskirk b. 1877
Patsy Cardiff b. 1863
Dominick McCafffrey b. 1863
Hank Griffin b. 1870
Yank Kenny b. 1865
Denver Ed Martin b. 1881
Jim Scanlan b. 1877
Joe Butler b. 1866
Dan Creedon b. 1868
Harris "Black Pearl" Martin b. 1865
Pat Killen b. 1861
Joe Kennedy b. 1876
Jack Bonner b. 1874
Peter Felix b. 1866
James "Tut" Ryan b. 1870
Frank Childs b. 1867
"Starlight" Rollins b. 1854
Billy McCall b. 1880
Charles AC Smith b. 1860
Joe Lannon b. 1865
Jack Ashton b. 1863
Fred Russell b. 1878
John "Klon***e" Hayes b. 1876
Fred Cooley b. 1884
Mike Conley b. 1860
McHenry Johnson b. 1859
Sandy Ferguson b. 1879
Mick Dooley b. 1862
Billy Peyton b. 1867
Jim Hall b. 1868
Jim Clow b. 1862
Billy Wilson b. 1859
George Kessler b. 1865
Jim Daly B. 1867
Billy Woods b. 1867
Jack Munroe b. 1877
Joe Dunfe b. 1868
Denver Ed Smith b. 1865
Dan Hickey b. 1866
Brooklyn Jimmy Carroll b. 1865
"Scaldy" Bill Quinn b. 1873
Port Costa Mike Brennan b. 1862
Billy Hennessey b. 1865
Mike Schreck b. 1879
Fred Morris b. 1872
Billy Baker b. 1862
**** "Wonder" Matthews b. 1858
Harry "Black Diamond" Woodson b. 1859
Frank Craig b. 1868
Tom "Stockings" Conroy b. 1878
Frank Glover b. 1864
Fred Cooley b. 1884
Jim Jeffords b. 1875
Bill Dunn b. 1864
Nick Burley b. 1875
Martin "Buffalo" Costello b. 1866
Harry Laing b. 1861
Wolf Bendoff b. 1856
Jem Smith b. 1863
Bill Doherty b. 1870
"Wild" Bill Hanrahan b. 1875
Jerry Slattery b. 1863
Tom Carey b. 1877
Jack Stelzner b. 1872
George Chrisp b. 1874
Frank "Clipper" Donohue b. 1870
Mike "Dummy" Rowan b. 1873
Ulysses "Kid Monday" Cannon b. 1878
Charlie Goff b. 1876
Jack Fallon b. 1863
Con Riordan b. 1864
"Utah" Jim Williams b. 1868
Jack LaFontise b. 1878
Denny Kelliher b. 1860
Jack Jeffries b. 1877
Tom Gleason b. 1869
Fred Drummond b. 1874
Burt Clarke b. 1869
Jack Scales b. 1867
Denis "Ike" Hayes b. 1864
Charles Stevenson b. 1876
"Slaughterhouse" Henry Baker b. 1867
Tom "Fatty" Langtry b. 1865
Bill Gabig b. 1861
Jack Slavin b. 1869
Charles Lange b. 1862
Morgan Williams b. 1880
Bob Caffey b. 1865
Joe Cotton b. 1873
Mike Queenan b. 1867
Billy Stift b. 1871
Ed Dunkhorst b. 1877
Billy Leedom b. 1867
Max Fenner b. 1864
"Big" Dan Bayliff b. 1869
Abdul Maljan Chevoor b. 1884
Val Flood b. 1871
Sailor White b. 1875
Jim McCormick b. 1877
Charley Strong b. 1873
Joe Bowers b. 1868
Al Weinig b. 1876
Charles Jennings b. 1880
Jim Glynn b. 1875
Eddie Dixon b. 1874
Peter Courtney b. 1871

[mattdonnellon]

- - It was filmed. The spit island was in the middle of the Rio Grande, no man's land, the international border.

Either it it was never developed, or was lost, or converted because of poor quality lighting in the overcast misting evening hours to be filmed over in the next fight in Reno, Fitz vs Corbett that became the first full length feature film record and the first International Blockbuster.

Why don't you shoot your ugly mug in a shuttered room at night and post it here for comparative purposes.

We won't snicker, I promise......

It was not filmed.

[mattdonnellon]

Laing, Dunkhorst, Byers, O'Donnell all good shouts. Can't for the life of me see Killen as a 1890's fighter, much as I like and rate him in the 1880's. McAuliffe handed him his ass in 1889, he had one fight in 1890, a shambles against the average Joe Sheedy and one contest in 1891, October 11 against the poor Bob Ferguson who went life and death (literally) with Pat before he was knocked out in six.Killen was dead ten days later.

[QueensburyRules]

It was not filmed.

- - Twas filmed...next!!!

[mattdonnellon]

- - Twas filmed...next!!!

The kinetoscope people, a score in all, were there with all their equipment, indeed there was a separate large hut in the enclosure for the purpose of filming the fight, but it was not to be. Enoch J. Rector was widely believed to be bankrolling the affair but conditions were most unsuitable for his machine. It had become very dark and overcast and some drops of rain had fallen. Rector would have his day and make a small fortune out of filming prize fighting, but this certainly was not to be that day.
dataurl352539.png Below; The bridge was erected on the bend on the river.

The idea had been to charge later viewers ten cents a round and given a long fight and clear day, the kinetoscope company stood to make $500,000 according to some estimates. Another estimate put their actual loss on the affair at between $20,000 and $25,000 as Stuart had little or no money to invest in the matter.
"As you know, we failed to photograph the fight, owing to the cloudy and unfavourable weather. We were all ready and had the kinetoscope charged for the occasion but we could not control the elements, and we were not in it." Enoch J Rector, quoted in the "the Galvestown Daily News" February 28th 1896.
So Twasn't!

[Ivich]

The kinetoscope people, a score in all, were there with all their equipment, indeed there was a separate large hut in the enclosure for the purpose of filming the fight, but it was not to be. Enoch J. Rector was widely believed to be bankrolling the affair but conditions were most unsuitable for his machine. It had become very dark and overcast and some drops of rain had fallen. Rector would have his day and make a small fortune out of filming prize fighting, but this certainly was not to be that day.
dataurl352539.png Below; The bridge was erected on the bend on the river.

The idea had been to charge later viewers ten cents a round and given a long fight and clear day, the kinetoscope company stood to make $500,000 according to some estimates. Another estimate put their actual loss on the affair at between $20,000 and $25,000 as Stuart had little or no money to invest in the matter.
"As you know, we failed to photograph the fight, owing to the cloudy and unfavourable weather. We were all ready and had the kinetoscope charged for the occasion but we could not control the elements, and we were not in it." Enoch J Rector, quoted in the "the Galvestown Daily News" February 28th 1896.
So Twasn't!

It wasn't filmed and the fight happened on the Mexican side of the river.All this is common knowledge and can be found inAdam Pollack's book Bob Fitzsimmons In The Ring And Out.You and I already knew that, but Queensbury Rules wont accept it.not that his opinion matters one iota. He is only tolerated here for comic relief.Like Lear's Fool

image.png

[QueensburyRules]

The kinetoscope people, a score in all, were there with all their equipment, indeed there was a separate large hut in the enclosure for the purpose of filming the fight, but it was not to be. Enoch J. Rector was widely believed to be bankrolling the affair but conditions were most unsuitable for his machine. It had become very dark and overcast and some drops of rain had fallen. Rector would have his day and make a small fortune out of filming prize fighting, but this certainly was not to be that day.
dataurl352539.png Below; The bridge was erected on the bend on the river.

The idea had been to charge later viewers ten cents a round and given a long fight and clear day, the kinetoscope company stood to make $500,000 according to some estimates. Another estimate put their actual loss on the affair at between $20,000 and $25,000 as Stuart had little or no money to invest in the matter.
"As you know, we failed to photograph the fight, owing to the cloudy and unfavourable weather. We were all ready and had the kinetoscope charged for the occasion but we could not control the elements, and we were not in it." Enoch J Rector, quoted in the "the Galvestown Daily News" February 28th 1896.
So Twasn't!

- - Edison was the money man and Rector his #1 guy tasked with such a difficult undertaking. When they first attempted to film Fitz/Corbett in 1895 Dallas, the TexGuv sounded the alarm as Legislature made boxing illegal.

I've got the original London Bridge I keep in a cardboard box I'm willing to sell you for $100 if you believe one moment after a week, nay a year of delays brought about by the Texas Legislature, heavily armed Texas Rangers, and Militia alloyed with 1000 Mexican troops deployed to stop the fight, with tens of thousand$ of Edison money on the line, that when opportunity came to film, all of a sudden Rector soils his shorts and turns his back?

He's quoted the day before the fight that after all those delays he was still ready for a go.

Your geographic map looks like something put together by 3rd graders. The Mexican side across from Langtry is where the channel runs that carved out 100-150' tall cliffs. The Texas side is the low side that in more pacific rivers is rich bottomland farming. There are photos of the sturdy pontoon bridge running out to the island that off loaded tons of lumber to build the facility. The equipment was already set up under the elevated film shack. Judge Bean had 4 large tarps surrounding the Jersey Lilly stocked with kegs of fresh beer and the Judge's ready made victuals with hard drinks served inside or bottles purchased for outside. The sports carroused as only turn of the century sports of the day could, firing off shots in the air and anything that moved outside their celebrations.

The filming conditions as I previously mentioned were misty mixed with streams of setting sunlight in the early twilight. There is looped Langtry road running from the Jersey Lilly out to the site called Torres Ave with a view site called Eagles Nest within view of the island, problem being the Rio Grande has been pumped so dry it disappears underground for stretches, so the river bed is now heavily populated by bushes and trees that mask elevations.

The fight lasted one minute at best, and afterwards Enoch had an invitation from the bordering Mexican Governor to film a bullfight in Juarez that he took up. That was under vastly more civilized conditions, yet I see no evidence of that bullfight the last time I checked the National Film archives.

The RailRoad on his journey back east runs through Houston, not Galveston, Your quote betrays the limitations of modern interpretation of events. Enoch was not a photographer for that trip, and oddly though we have the photographs of the pontoon bridge, spectators, the ring, and weatherproof film shack, I have yet to see a photo of the fighters for that one minute slice of time that a Brownie Camera could've easily captured.

I'll repeat for hard of hearing, the fight was filmed, but seems to have disappeared from modern view, the reasons being it was lost in the travel or mail, it was damaged after the fact from often horrific conditions in this part of the country, or it was filmed over by the bullfight whether purposely for being not viewable, or accidentally, but that don't explain what happened to the the Bullfight film...only in boxing, folks!