Another list

[JAB5239]

I think Marvin Hagler is the best MW there ever was so he is a bit low for mine. And obviously I am biased as all **** but Roy should be higher than 8 at LHW or whatever he had him at. I don't mind his HW rankings though.

I had Marvin #1 for a long time, but have since changed my middleweights standing around a bit with Monzon and Greb flip flopping in the number 1 spot. This is no knock on Marvin, he's one of my favorite fighters ever. I just think these guys fought better comp and did more at middleweight.

[QueensburyRules]

I had Marvin #1 for a long time, but have since changed my middleweights standing around a bit with Monzon and Greb flip flopping in the number 1 spot. This is no knock on Marvin, he's one of my favorite fighters ever. I just think these guys fought better comp and did more at middleweight.

- -Most all luv Marv, but you're 100% correct.

I'm also thinking back to Ezzard Charles in that mix.

[billeau2]

Best finisher for the heavies

I feel strongly that Liston was the best finisher for the heavies. Aside from that any well thought out list is ok by me. I also think Marciano was better than Frazier but I see the point c o x made, and its a good one. I do like how he compares Frazier and Marciano.

philosophically when we look at fighters and lists it gets very tricky deciding placements on these lists.

[The Old LefHook]

The first list is the height of halfwittedness.

[The Old LefHook]

The only sensible list out of the bunch was this one:


Harry Greb
Bob Fitzsimmons
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Stanley Ketchel
Bernard Hopkins
Charley Burley
Marcel Cerdan
**** Tiger
Jake Lamotta

And even it was wrong. **** Tiger? Burley? Halfwitted, just not the height of halfwittedness.

[Rusty Tromboni]

The only sensible list out of the bunch was this one:


Harry Greb
Bob Fitzsimmons
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Stanley Ketchel
Bernard Hopkins
Charley Burley
Marcel Cerdan
**** Tiger
Jake Lamotta

And even it was wrong. **** Tiger? Burley? Halfwitted, just not the height of halfwittedness.

head-to-head they're a nightmare for most fighters.

Ketchel was supremely talented. But very, very raw.

I don't like ranking him. In terms of talent he's grat.

I dunno how Steele didn't make the list. Same with Valdez and Grifith (who gave Monzon great fights).

I'm assuming Walker and Robinson are confined to Welterweight?

[Rusty Tromboni]

I feel strongly that Liston was the best finisher for the heavies. Aside from that any well thought out list is ok by me. I also think Marciano was better than Frazier but I see the point c o x made, and its a good one. I do like how he compares Frazier and Marciano.

philosophically when we look at fighters and lists it gets very tricky deciding placements on these lists.

frazier was a lot bigger. He only through his right ot the body, while MArciano was two fisted. And he didn't have the chin or one punch power, but he bore in better.

Really, Marciano is better P4P and was a much quicker study of the sport, but Frazier is a much better Heavyweight.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Most all luv Marv, but you're 100% correct.

I'm also thinking back to Ezzard Charles in that mix.

why not just add him to the Featherweights while we're at it?

Conn wasn't jsut a better Light HEavyweight and Heavyweight than Charles, he was also a REAL Middleweight (ya know, some one who fought in that division --- and won the world championship while he was at it, no less).Why not include him?

I know he was less than his best, but do you really pick any Middleweight you've SEEN (you have not seen the LHw Charles beat up on Middleweights) to beat Conn?

[chrisJS]

No Vicente Saldivar at Featherweight? That’s a head scratcher. He packed so much quality into his run.

Same for Carlos Ortiz at 135. Two glaring omissions IMO.

[ecto55]

I can't see much to disagree with on Monte Cox's list, obviously judgment can only be reserved on the most recent entrants like AJ, Ruiz Jr etc...as their next fight could completely change our views of them

Here's Cox's list, with my own gloss to it. Again, I largely agree with Cox, and have little to quibble about.


Best Overall Boxer: Muhammad Ali - based on accomplishments, not necessarily H2H in all matchups, yes.
Fastest: Muhammad Ali - footspeed + handspeed + reactions - yes, agreed.
Best Fundamentally: Joe Louis - yes, Louis in fundamental's was equal to anyone else.
Best Jab: Larry Holmes - hmmm, maybe not for me, Ali's was measured at something like 000.6 of a second, and Liston's could break your face apart. I'd take Ali here - the fastest heavyweight jab to control my opponent over a slower but more variable Holmes jab.
Best Left Hook: Jack Dempsey, Joe Frazier - I'd take Dempsey's hook over Frazier, Louis, and the other champion left hookers.
Best Right Cross: Joe Louis - agreed, although only because of his power at very close range making his right more variable. Walcott and Lewis for example, might hit harder.
Best Uppercut: George Foreman, Mike Tyson - hmm, two very different uppercuts thrown from very different structures.
Best Counter Puncher: Joe Louis - yeah, better than Holyfield, Andy Ruiz (haha) etc.
Best Knockout Puncher (Power AND Accuracy): Joe Louis - agreed.
Best Combination Punching: Joe Louis - agreed.
Hardest One Punch: Mike Tyson - disagree, I think even among the champions there's harder punching heavies. But I guess the championship requirement see's Shavers excluded as not a champ, so too Cooney, Tua and a few other's whose one shot power is probably harder than Dempsey, Louis, Tyson or Klitchko's. Tyson's opponents usually emphaised the quickness rather than raw power of Tyson...but yeah, okay Tyson (strength and quickness = power) for one punch power.
Best Body Puncher: Joe Frazier - what it better that Louis'? I suppose it was more integral to Frazier's style that Louis' and used so much more....so, tentatively agreed.
Best Finisher: Joe Louis - agreed.
Best Footwork: Muhammad Ali - agreed. Yep, circling, punching while moving, cutting off the ring, placement just outside an opponents range etc.
Best at Feinting: Jack Johnson - agreed....the things I've read he'd do with his feints. Mind you, bouts were at a much slower pace then which aided Jackson's cognitive style. Blackburn was right, by the 20's, Jackson would have been boo'd out of any area.
Best Defense: Jack Johnson - agreed...
Strongest Physically: George Foreman - agreed, although I wonder how strong a peak Klitchko was.
Best Conditioned: Rocky Marciano - agreed.
Best Chin: Muhammad Ali - agreed.
Best Competition: Muhammad Ali - agreed, obviously.