What if Clay/Ali had lost to Sonny Liston?

[Franko]

There are plenty of rumours behind both Clay/Ali V Liston fights i.e. In the 1st Liston V Clay fight, Clay (as he was named then) wanted to quit at the end of the fourth round claiming that he had difficulty with his vision, but Angelo Dundee convinced him to continue with the fight, and at the end of the fifth round his vision had returned which enabled the referee to let the fight continue, as it was claimed that the referee was about to stop the fight and award a TKO to Liston! Then of course, Liston failed to emerge for the seventh round claiming that he had a numbness in his left arm!

Many believe that Liston had thrown the fight and it soon emerged that a promotions company of which Sonny was a partner had contracted with a Louisville group who held promotions with Clay/Ali. The contract involved the costly purchase of the rights to promote Clay's next fight, which was the fight after the 1st Liston fight and which was contracted prior to the first Liston fight!!!
Clay was the obvious underdog against Liston in the 1st fight, therefore, it represented a huge risk by the company (of which Sonny was a partner) buying rights to a fight when apparently Clay was facing almost certain defeat in a fight before that!

Everyone knows the allegations made about the rematch, but the su****ion and troubles reagarding the 1st fight were such that many states wouldn't even sanction the rematch.

What are your thoughts, if any, on this?

[hemichromis]

if liston won by something like that ali would have certainly got a rematch liston would have been forced into it by the boxing commision.
if however, liston knocked him out and did not have a rematch i beleive liston would have reigned until foreman

[K-DOGG]

If Clay loses to Liston....he never gets another shot at the title.

Once it comes out, as it almost did before the fight, that Clay is a ******, he gets blackballed by all boxing organizations and either goes to Vietnam or goes to jail....and never becomes "Muhammad Ali". In the Nation of Islam it takes years before Elijah Muhammad bestowed a name upon a member. The only reaon he made an exception in Cassius X's case was becasue he was the world champion and the face of the "nation".

If Clay has them take the gloves off before Round 5 and the fight is stopped, he is looked at first as a quitter, second as a traitor by being a ******, the Nation doesn't (and didn't in reality) support his stand against Vietnam, and because he's NOT the world champion, nobody cares that he doesn't want to go, so he get's convicted and goest to jail for 5 years....and doestn' have the money to pay the lawyers to keep him out of jail.

So, if he were to have a boxing career after 1967, Cassius X, provided he remained ****** after the Nation hung him out to dry, could make a comeback when he got out of prison in 1972 or 1975, depending upon how his trial went. After being in prison for several years, his fleet feet slowed by age and rust, his hands brittle, his reflexes slowed, he gets stopped by some fighter you've never heard of, or maybe one you have and finishes his career in relative obscurity.


....Funny how a man's fate can depend upon one moment in time. Angelo Dundee made Ali as much as Ali did himself when he pushed him back into the ring against Liston in 1964.

[hemichromis]

If Clay loses to Liston....he never gets another shot at the title.

Once it comes out, as it almost did before the fight, that Clay is a ******, he gets blackballed by all boxing organizations and either goes to Vietnam or goes to jail....and never becomes "Muhammad Ali". In the Nation of Islam it takes years before Elijah Muhammad bestowed a name upon a member. The only reaon he made an exception in Cassius X's case was becasue he was the world champion and the face of the "nation".

If Clay has them take the gloves off before Round 5 and the fight is stopped, he is looked at first as a quitter, second as a traitor by being a ******, the Nation doesn't (and didn't in reality) support his stand against Vietnam, and because he's NOT the world champion, nobody cares that he doesn't want to go, so he get's convicted and goest to jail for 5 years....and doestn' have the money to pay the lawyers to keep him out of jail.

So, if he were to have a boxing career after 1967, Cassius X, provided he remained ****** after the Nation hung him out to dry, could make a comeback when he got out of prison in 1972 or 1975, depending upon how his trial went. After being in prison for several years, his fleet feet slowed by age and rust, his hands brittle, his reflexes slowed, he gets stopped by some fighter you've never heard of, or maybe one you have and finishes his career in relative obscurity.


....Funny how a man's fate can depend upon one moment in time. Angelo Dundee made Ali as much as Ali did himself when he pushed him back into the ring against Liston in 1964.

nice but what do you think happens to heavyweight boxing in the mean time

[K-DOGG]

nice but what do you think happens to heavyweight boxing in the mean time

Good question.

Well, I can see Sonny holding onto the title into his late 30's...or "later 30's", as the case may be. He'd have beaten Terrell, Ellis, they wouldn't have given Patterson a third match, and he'd already proven he could beat Machen and Williams; I think he would have beaten Foster and Mathis too. I'll say either Quarry or Frazier beat him around 1968..and the rest would have played out pretty much the same as it happened. Frazier beats Quarry, if Quarry had beaten Liston, and loses to Foreman, who holds onto the belt until he loses to Larry Holmes or Jimmy Young around 1978 or '79. The cool thing is Foreman probably wouldn't have retired and he would have been taking on the best fighters of the 1980's, probably rematching Holmes, etc.

It would have been interesting.

[butterfly1964]

Good question.

Well, I can see Sonny holding onto the title into his late 30's...or "later 30's", as the case may be. He'd have beaten Terrell, Ellis, they wouldn't have given Patterson a third match, and he'd already proven he could beat Machen and Williams; I think he would have beaten Foster and Mathis too. I'll say either Quarry or Frazier beat him around 1968..and the rest would have played out pretty much the same as it happened. Frazier beats Quarry, if Quarry had beaten Liston, and loses to Foreman, who holds onto the belt until he loses to Larry Holmes or Jimmy Young around 1978 or '79. The cool thing is Foreman probably wouldn't have retired and he would have been taking on the best fighters of the 1980's, probably rematching Holmes, etc.

It would have been interesting.

That's the way I would have it. Except I think Liston would beat Quarry. Liston would lose the title to Frazier in 1969 because he would be too old, and then trying to make a comeback, a young and hungry fighter end's Liston's career in 1971 by battering him into summission, named George Foreman. George Foreman from the Liston win would be instantly catapulted into the title picture and would get a title shot in 1972 against Frazier, a prime Frazier because Ali wouldn't be around to ruin him. This time it takes Foreman six rounds to stop Frazier flooring him 8 times. Then Foreman destroys Norton and rematches with Frazier, this time ko'ing him in one round, ending Frazier's career. Foreman goes on to dominate and beats Larry Holmes in 1978, rematches in 1979 and loses. Foreman goes on a comeback, and in 1984 knocks out Holmes to become only the second man to regain the heavyweight championship. He then gets upsetted by Michael Spinks in 1985, and Spinks gets flattened by Tyson in 1986, and in 1988, Tyson and Foreman fight. Foreman is too old, so he loses by unanimous decision. Foreman this time retires for good. Tyson loses to Douglass in 1990, who loses to Holyfield, who loses to Bowe, who loses to Holy, who loses to Moorer, who reigns until 1996 and gets stopped by Tyson(not Foreman, since Foreman is retired). Tyson loses to Holyfield, and then it goes on from there.

[K-DOGG]

That's the way I would have it. Except I think Liston would beat Quarry. Liston would lose the title to Frazier in 1969 because he would be too old, and then trying to make a comeback, a young and hungry fighter end's Liston's career in 1971 by battering him into summission, named George Foreman. George Foreman from the Liston win would be instantly catapulted into the title picture and would get a title shot in 1972 against Frazier, a prime Frazier because Ali wouldn't be around to ruin him. This time it takes Foreman six rounds to stop Frazier flooring him 8 times. Then Foreman destroys Norton and rematches with Frazier, this time ko'ing him in one round, ending Frazier's career. Foreman goes on to dominate and beats Larry Holmes in 1978, rematches in 1979 and loses. Foreman goes on a comeback, and in 1984 knocks out Holmes to become only the second man to regain the heavyweight championship. He then gets upsetted by Michael Spinks in 1985, and Spinks gets flattened by Tyson in 1986, and in 1988, Tyson and Foreman fight. Foreman is too old, so he loses by unanimous decision. Foreman this time retires for good. Tyson loses to Douglass in 1990, who loses to Holyfield, who loses to Bowe, who loses to Holy, who loses to Moorer, who reigns until 1996 and gets stopped by Tyson(not Foreman, since Foreman is retired). Tyson loses to Holyfield, and then it goes on from there.

Not bad, butterfly. Not bad at all.

[Kid Achilles]

Of course the further you go, the more into the hypotheticals you get.

Am I the only one who believes that the Frazier Foreman knocked out was not in his prime, and that Frazier post Ali was at least slightly damaged goods? Foreman beating Joe twice is misleading because by the second time Frazier should not have been fighting and was WAY past it.

What I'm getting at is I'm not so sure Foreman stomps a Frazier that didn't go to war with Ali. Sure Foreman looked invincible there, but Big George never did absorb a good left hook (he got tagged with a few half decent ones) from Frazier and that creates some doubt in my mind how he'd take it. I feel that the Frazier from the first Ali fight was sharper and faster in his punching and had quicker upper body movement than the one who had trouble getting through Foreman's guard.

Call me a Foreman hater, but I don't consider the Frazier that Foreman beat to be a prime Smokin' Joe. Would Foreman be favored over any version of Frazier? I think so, he proved his style was definitely an uphill battle for the smaller swarmer. But is it a sure thing? I'm not so sure of it, and I think that if Foreman took some of the left hooks that Ali did in FOTC, he would be in trouble. At the very least, you Foreman fans will have to concede that we'll never know.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Of course the further you go, the more into the hypotheticals you get.

Am I the only one who believes that the Frazier Foreman knocked out was not in his prime, and that Frazier post Ali was at least slightly damaged goods? Foreman beating Joe twice is misleading because by the second time Frazier should not have been fighting and was WAY past it.

What I'm getting at is I'm not so sure Foreman stomps a Frazier that didn't go to war with Ali. Sure Foreman looked invincible there, but Big George never did absorb a good left hook (he got tagged with a few half decent ones) from Frazier and that creates some doubt in my mind how he'd take it. I feel that the Frazier from the first Ali fight was sharper and faster in his punching and had quicker upper body movement than the one who had trouble getting through Foreman's guard.

Call me a Foreman hater, but I don't consider the Frazier that Foreman beat to be a prime Smokin' Joe. Would Foreman be favored over any version of Frazier? I think so, he proved his style was definitely an uphill battle for the smaller swarmer. But is it a sure thing? I'm not so sure of it, and I think that if Foreman took some of the left hooks that Ali did in FOTC, he would be in trouble. At the very least, you Foreman fans will have to concede that we'll never know.

well we don't really know. Foreman had pretty poor defense and frazier was always able to tag Foreman with left hooks both in the first fight and in the second and it didn't seem to bother Foreman in the slightest. Foreman had more trouble against taking combination of hard shots rather than just the continued left that Frazier used.

Seeing the 1971 fight it's hard to imagine a prime Frazier doing that much better. Frazier still fought like Frazier in that fight and was probably only a tad slower than his peak. We know Frazier still had a Manila left in him and also could still win a tough bruising fight as seen by his fight with Bugner after the Foreman fight.

A prime Frazier was still a slow starter who would continously charge his opponents and rely on his left hook to do the killing. So I'd still say Foreman would still stop a non Ali fought Frazier in 4-6 rounds. But I could also see frazier sticking around and upsetting Larry Holmes....

[K-DOGG]

Of course the further you go, the more into the hypotheticals you get.

Am I the only one who believes that the Frazier Foreman knocked out was not in his prime, and that Frazier post Ali was at least slightly damaged goods? Foreman beating Joe twice is misleading because by the second time Frazier should not have been fighting and was WAY past it.

What I'm getting at is I'm not so sure Foreman stomps a Frazier that didn't go to war with Ali. Sure Foreman looked invincible there, but Big George never did absorb a good left hook (he got tagged with a few half decent ones) from Frazier and that creates some doubt in my mind how he'd take it. I feel that the Frazier from the first Ali fight was sharper and faster in his punching and had quicker upper body movement than the one who had trouble getting through Foreman's guard.

Call me a Foreman hater, but I don't consider the Frazier that Foreman beat to be a prime Smokin' Joe. Would Foreman be favored over any version of Frazier? I think so, he proved his style was definitely an uphill battle for the smaller swarmer. But is it a sure thing? I'm not so sure of it, and I think that if Foreman took some of the left hooks that Ali did in FOTC, he would be in trouble. At the very least, you Foreman fans will have to concede that we'll never know.

There is great validity to your line of thinking, Kid. The Frazier after Ali I had lost something...how could he not?

However, I do think styles make fights; and it's hard for me to imagine Frazier beating Foreman. Like Butterfly, I think it might have lasted longer; but with George's uppercuts being a constant.. Well, you see my point.