Originally posted by MalevolentBite
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Comments Thread For: Chris Algieri?s School of Thought: Jaron ?Boots? Ennis is on the cusp of greatness
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Originally posted by Bronx2245 View PostJordan plays basketball, so how about we compare to him to ATG Boxers? Let's start with Leonard and Hearns. They started at WW too. Then they moved up and continued to win! How about Duran, Whitaker, Jones, and Mayweather? Yup, all moved up from their starting weight classes, and continued win. So if Boots stays at WW, and fights the likes of Stanionis, Barrios, Norman, and Glasyov, he can never become an ATG! Simple as that!
Now, you cited some all time greats who moved up in weight, but thats nothing unique, there are plenty of not all time great fighters who moved up in weight too. Most fighters move up in weight class as they age and they can no longer make the weight they are at. They werent great because they moved up in weight, they were great AND they moved up in weight. The fact that they found consistent success was a product of them already being great. Now you may evaulate greatness based on ones ability to move up in weight, to me its not as important. I prefer to evaluate how great a fighter is in the ring relative to the given weight class. Certainly, having better opposition allows for a more accurate assesment (ergo Boots remaining at the weight makes it difficult to prove his greatness).
That being written what about ATGs like Hagler, or Monzon? They never moved up, yet I wouldn't denounce them as not being great. What about htose like Benny Leonard, who only moved up late in his career and never really had any success when he did? Most everyone still would rank him as a top 15 atg. What about the plethora of heavyweights who never had a chance to move up in weight? Do we discount their greatness as such.
WE are all free to have our criteria for greatness, and to be certain it is easier to prove against superior competition, but I don't hold it against a fighter for remaining at a weight where they are at their relative best even if it means they dont end up facing as difficult competition. AS long as they make weight I am good with them being dominant and staying in a weight class, as this is a sport and physical (and relative physical) ability is a key component to success.
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Originally posted by DeeMoney View Post
First off, I'm not tracking the logic in what you are implying. I am stating that a fighter should not have to move up in weight simply to challenge themselves if by doing so they move beyond where they are at their best (ergo the comparison to MJ handicapping himself). Simply moving up to a higher weight class does not necessarily prove that you are a better given fighter (some people handle weight better). Moreover, there is nothing wrong in being better at a given lower weight because of your relative athletic ability at that weight.
Now, you cited some all time greats who moved up in weight, but thats nothing unique, there are plenty of not all time great fighters who moved up in weight too. Most fighters move up in weight class as they age and they can no longer make the weight they are at. They werent great because they moved up in weight, they were great AND they moved up in weight. The fact that they found consistent success was a product of them already being great. Now you may evaulate greatness based on ones ability to move up in weight, to me its not as important. I prefer to evaluate how great a fighter is in the ring relative to the given weight class. Certainly, having better opposition allows for a more accurate assesment (ergo Boots remaining at the weight makes it difficult to prove his greatness).
That being written what about ATGs like Hagler, or Monzon? They never moved up, yet I wouldn't denounce them as not being great. What about htose like Benny Leonard, who only moved up late in his career and never really had any success when he did? Most everyone still would rank him as a top 15 atg. What about the plethora of heavyweights who never had a chance to move up in weight? Do we discount their greatness as such.
WE are all free to have our criteria for greatness, and to be certain it is easier to prove against superior competition, but I don't hold it against a fighter for remaining at a weight where they are at their relative best even if it means they dont end up facing as difficult competition. AS long as they make weight I am good with them being dominant and staying in a weight class, as this is a sport and physical (and relative physical) ability is a key component to success.
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Originally posted by Bronx2245 View PostI'm glad you mentioned Hagler. If Boots stays at WW, he might have a career like Hagler? If I were him, I would want a career like Sugar Ray Leonard!
Think about it, 1984 comes back at SWW for a win, but then retires again for a few years. Comes out of retirement to beat Hagler in Hagler's last fight. Takes a year off then gets the Lt heavyweight belt in a fight that is capped at SMW (which is a farce). Draw with Hearns, decisions an over the hill Duran, then get picked apart by Terry Norris. Comes out of retirement a few years later and loses to Camacho.
I get what you are trying to imply, but Leonard aint the guy to use for the example.
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Originally posted by DeeMoney View Post
Which is fine, but remember, SRL only fought 8 total fights above welter weight, for which he was 5-2-1, and didn't fight at middle weight til a month off from his 31st birthday. Its not as if he was jumping through weight classes, he was a welterweight until he injured his eye and then missed a few years. He had some good fights, but to argue that SRLs greatness is due to him moving up in weight to 'challenge' himself isnt what happened. He moved up in weight because thats the weight he could make at the time.
Think about it, 1984 comes back at SWW for a win, but then retires again for a few years. Comes out of retirement to beat Hagler in Hagler's last fight. Takes a year off then gets the Lt heavyweight belt in a fight that is capped at SMW (which is a farce). Draw with Hearns, decisions an over the hill Duran, then get picked apart by Terry Norris. Comes out of retirement a few years later and loses to Camacho.
I get what you are trying to imply, but Leonard aint the guy to use for the example.
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